The Council of Modders

[Romulus]

Firstly, I just want to add, that I had initially planned on posting this in the modders section. But seeing as though this is on the border between an idea and modding it's best suited in this section. Hope the mods agree.

So now one thing I have experienced in this community is the drive and willingness to carry this game through, it cannot be ignored and even though it's noticeable I feel inclined to just point this out and to say well done. Because this just proves to the on lookers and audience out there that the RTS folks are alive and kicking! And in my opinion, because this misconception amongst the corporate game industries, that RTS is a dead market, it's because quite simply they deliver &$@# without actually looking towards open source communities such as this one, and actually saying "you know what hey, ""What do you guys want in an RTS""???

And I think 0 A.D. is an answer to that in operation. In crystal clear clarity.

So let me just elaborate what this council thing is about.

What I have experienced in the modding section for 0 A.D. thus far, is the devotion shared amongst the modders here. So my idea here is taking into account our time spent into modding creates time gaps in completing tasks of the official projects they enlisted. And as I appreciate very much the help that has been offered, I propose that we introduce a new scheme which formerly unites the projects into one great project, and this project (organization) therefor becomes an expansion to 0 A.D.

This is a nice way of contributing to the dev and probably may save them time and hassle with menial stuff, where they could probably levitate the load and focus on the more crucial aspects of the game.

I think in our projects now, if we can attract more individuals to help out, we could potentially have a steady work rate going... Then obviously we can assess the ins and outs later.

But as a council perhaps we can look into a sort of assignment scheduling, whereby we collectively alter our work on all the projects, rather than focusing on one constantly. Because the majority of those enlisted are all enlisted in the other projects as well. So it just seems to make sense like that basically.

But this is just really an idea.... And it would be interesting to hear your thoughts and input on it.

[Radagast.]

But as a council perhaps we can look into a sort of assignment scheduling, whereby we collectively alter our work on all the projects, rather than focusing on one constantly. Because the majority of those enlisted are all enlisted in the other projects as well. So it just seems to make sense like that basically.

First I thought of the councils (senate) I'm currently trying to get our AI to organize.

Now I get, that you want a broader umbrella for all mod work as this is all somewhat lost in several corners. So you want to gather it am I right? Gather it into official repositories of 0 A.D. to have all artwork of all mods in the SVN, but in its own branch folder?

I think that's what is planned for the Git transition. Though I wonder if we really need the autobuild Philip has to focus on currently. Would love to free this dev of this workload. Devs have already put so much work into the makefiles ... I think Git is a nice to have, but couldn't we setup such an umbrella for SVN too?

What I think is strange in 0 A.D. and other types of RTS is that mods seem too separate from the main repositories, finally reinventing the wheel because they have to recreate props that already exist elsewhere in the SVN. Or at leat copy them.

One of the changes I need for our new features is the introduction of time. I know that's a conflict with 0 A.D.'s definitions - though I wonder if it really is a nogo if there were greek cities surviving into viking age 200 years later? I don't want to escalate artwork to adapt the clothes as time goes by be assured. Anyway in history there is no certain line where the city phase is left: There were many city states still active until late after the first crusades (everywhere in the mediterranean sea essentially).

I mention that because this makes the Mod-generated content: 1000 A.D., Rogue Republic, Eastern World, Mod, Egyptian factions Mod all quite relevant. Especially it is not even scientifically certain that e.g. Vikings did not conflict with Romans - only because Ancient literature doesn't notice it or eventually was destroyed. To reach the middleages will take years anyway ... so will it matter? Finally 0 A.D. is a simulation and simulations have variations, so for every subtle change in the seed there will easily prolongue the existance of the Egyptian tribe or delay when they build their pyramids if they ever decide to it with this seed. There are myriads of different outcomes. And as I don't think that 0 A.D. is purely defined as a mere recreation of exactly one short period of time but rather a simulation, I'd like to open up some discussions about the time introduction I plan.

And whether this opens up new ways to use the content the Mod section outputs?

That being asked I just want to prepare devs that it's hard to tell which changes will be required for the features that have captured all my wits, spinning me out of control out of enthusiasm. And as I'm worried that wildfiregames might get my intentions wrong - I'd like to beg for a branching permission. I don't want to remove their code and destroy their works of many years. The main goal is additive, read: new things.

Is it still complicated to merge from GIT back into SVN? I heard wraitii had to do that last time. Which repo shall I use - SVN or Git? I'd prefer Git, but I'm flexible in that regard, it does not even really matter other than for merging individual features from the branch I'll work on into the main trunk of 0 A.D. should that be decided. (oh, why can't I get this artificial intelligence decision tree out of my head anymore ? )

I will need months if not years to turn all my plans into reality and tune the stratety of the AI and the friction and balance of the military actions.

That said, I should admit, that currently it looks a bit easier to use the Blender Game Engine simply because I'm used to blender. I have talked to several blenderartists and I could gather some fine CGArtists from my previous ventures should my progress be significant enough. Finally we already decided on creating something like this before. We have already written some storylines ...

My ultimate but of course not too serious goal is to join blender game engine and pyrogenesis - merging two similar projects into one but I guess there are two problems:

• BGE is more suitable for RPG and using libraries that probably could clutter 0 A.D. like Recast or Detour for navigating meshes,
• it will need years to get into all odds and ends,
• neither the blender chieftain Ton nor Wildfiregames will like it unless the performance and graphics quality is the same and unless the project isn't decoupled from blender - and here it really starts to get really hard.

This massive task makes me feel it's best to simply branch and try keep it all compatible until I come up with real solutions. Time will tell.

Edit: I got it all wrong!! The Council of Modders shall decide on timing? Do we really need it? I mean people have real lives ... do we need to press an artists into artwork by due date? I'm convinced of the opposite. Only if you are convinced of what you do, then you will make things happen.

Edited February 16, 2014 by Hephaestion

[Radagast.]

One of the changes I need for our new features is the introduction of time. I know that's a conflict with 0 A.D.'s definitions - though I wonder if it really is a nogo if there were greek cities surviving into viking age 200 years later?

If that is a problem for wildfiregames, then I can opt to make it cyclic. So the time will start over in 500 B.C. again right through 0 A.D. where it will start all over again.

The cool thing of this is, technologies could be research by time, e.g. by specifying a date property in the XML as we already do it everywhere.

[niektb]

The idea sounds good. (One large modding team who makes sure to add a lot of additional content) however I fear that it will not work out. Simply because you do not only make mods to add content but also to really change gameplay because you feel the gameplay needs some additions. Everyone has his own opinions who are hard to merge. Also for example in Millennium AD the civs do not really match/look like other civs in the main repo or other mods.

Therefore it's hard to see it as an expansion.

@Hephastion: please do not overwork yourself. start steadily expanding the current gameplay, instead of completely changing it. I personally prefer an good working old school like RTS with a rock solid gameplay, no RPG-RTS hybrid.

Edited February 17, 2014 by niektb

[Romulus]

The idea sounds good. (One large modding team who makes sure to add a lot of additional content) however I fear that it will not work out. Simply because you do not only make mods to add content but also to really change gameplay because you feel the gameplay needs some additions. Everyone has his own opinions who are hard to merge. Also for example in Millennium AD the civs do not really match/look like other civs in the main repo or other mods.

Therefore it's hard to see it as an expansion.

A couple things I feel you misunderstood.

By expansion, I meant to the dev as sub assistants.

The changing gameplay features and unique content can be used in the main version if it's decided upon.

So this just becomes a harmonious way of going about it, rather than have groups of modders all doing something completely for one thing, rather than to ensure, and enforce a steady growth rate for the main game.

The main game is the seed and root here, and to ensure it grows emphasis needs to be focused on it, rather than starting on the branches, if you get my meaning

[niektb]

Well, okay. You can count on me. We still should think of how the Council would take shape but in general it seems a good idea to me.

[Stan`]

You'll need a solid communication though.

[niektb]

You'll need a solid communication though.

Yup, we should have to find a good and fast way to communicate + make sure everyone is on the same track.

[Stan`]

Maybe you could ask the WebTeam to give you an IRC Channel.

[Romulus]

Or I can just create one on the server, but then everyone might might the site more convenient as a client.

Lets see what the web team says

[sanderd17]

#0ad is very empty these days (since the lobby). So you can just as well use that.

If you don't want, the IRC channels are just registered with quakenet. But there are many services that offer channels (like freenode for open-source stuff).

[Romulus]

#0ad should be fine. Doesn't matter what channel, as long as its accessible via the IRC page instead of a client for convenience.

[thamlett]

I'd like to be a part too.

I agree, we definitely need solid communication.

Perhaps a sub-forum?

[niektb]

I'd like to be a part too.

I agree, we definitely need solid communication.

Perhaps a sub-forum?

Why? we do already have a subforum. (Game modifications)

[greenknight32]

The Council of Modders - was that a deleted chapter from Lord of the Rings?

Seriously, I agree with niektb - there is a mod forum already.

[Romulus]

The Council of Modders - was that a deleted chapter from Lord of the Rings?

Seriously, I agree with niektb - there is a mod forum already.

Yeah there is, but we need a live communication feed, just like IRC.

And welcome

Might I propse new signatures for members of the newly formed Modders Council?

One of our top tasks is to write extensively, modding guides applying all our knowledge combined. This will attract newcomers to 0 A.D. And encourage more recruits to aid our work.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Romulus

[niektb]

...

Might I propse new signatures for members of the newly formed Modders Council?

...

Wouldn't be more than logical, would it?

[Lion.Kanzen]

All modders need each other. We aren't all programmers and not all you are artist, or map/game designer.

[Romulus]

Wouldn't be more than logical, would it?

Just an idea.

A signature that also states the modders skill. Like Kanzen said, we all have different skills.

This is just so we know who's who.

[GunChleoc]

Yeah there is, but we need a live communication feed, just like IRC.

You said yourself in this thread that #0ad would be fine for now. You can always opan a separate channel ater if need arises.

[niektb]

I've setup (or actually changed an existing) a general github organisation for our purposes.

https://github.com/CouncilofModders

Apart from that: I want Millennium A.D. to be part of the Council's projects.

[thamlett]

ok...

so i created a github account (thamlett)

now what?

I'm not an artist or a programmer

mainly my thing is computer refurbishing, and this gives me access to a lot of different platforms

i could also do research

what else could i do

[niektb]

Researchers are always welcome. Besides I think you should have the svn version of the game. I think you could do template modding (editing stats and actor relations) (=very easy to learn) and balancing+playtesting?

[Romulus]

You said yourself in this thread that #0ad would be fine for now. You can always opan a separate channel ater if need arises.

Yes I did. IRC is for live com. But for convenient factors, members of this council would undoubtedly find the web client more appropriate, as opposed to mIrC, xchat or whatever.

I've setup (or actually changed an existing) a general github organisation for our purposes.

https://github.com/CouncilofModders

Apart from that: I want Millennium A.D. to be part of the Council's projects.

In my opinion, I should say revert back to old organization for Millennium A.D. Because we will combine our organizations in part of a great big unity.

You will see later

Let's get members to sign up here first, then we will start the formation of this club. No hurry

[niektb]

...

In my opinion, I should say revert back to old organization for Millennium A.D. Because we will combine our organizations in part of a great big unity.

You will see later

Let's get members to sign up here first, then we will start the formation of this club. No hurry

I guess I did (and still do) not fully understand how you would like to manage the project.

What I namely did is creating a organization (Council of Modders) with the possibility of creating repo's of which Millennium A.D. is already one. (So the project is still called the old way, the organization behind is only different.)

But okay, I will be patient.

Should you BTW create a list+form which people can use to apply?