Thoughts on the Athenians

[Vantha]

4 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I've desired this for a long time. A decade.

I know. I'm currently working on too many other things to implement it myself, but if anyone does (preferably without an LLM) I would be happy to review and merge it. I suppose the main question is where and how big to display each of the names.

[Emacz]

4 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I've desired this for a long time. A decade.

Couldn't you do that through a "mixin"?

[Thalatta]

1 hour ago, Emacz said:

Couldn't you do that through a "mixin"?

I think the point could be to keep selectable options limited and uniform among civs, while allowing for actual differentiation and evolution if wanted. I've come across this issue so many times, and one has to end anachronistically simplify things, which could indeed be solved if "a unit can represent more than just the soldiers equipped in the exact same way".

For example, the Athenians had hippotoxotai (cavalry archers) substituted by prodromoi ("scouts") in the first half of the 4th c. BC. With the proposal, both could appear, depending on progress, but the icon, or just the "generic" name, could be the same, and quite common for most civs (Mounted Skirmisher could be an option), but the actual model would change (among civs and with progress), have different stats, and the "particular" unit name also be written somewhere, but the "generic" name would tell you basically its function. Other examples I came across just this last week is that Alexander's mounted skirmishers went from javelineers to archers, and his prodromoi apparently from javelineers to lancers. And I guess it would simplify dealing with things like the Roman Army.

Spoiler

Some of this was going to be mentioned in Part II, but now it's here. Regarding Alexander's prodromoi, after treating them as skirmishers for some time, "this last mention of prodromoi by Arrian creates something of a problem. The alternate name for them, sarissophoroi", "lancers comprising prodromoi", "Arrian usually distinguishes between Paeonians and prodromoi, but that could be no more than an effort to distinguish ethnic from Macedonian prodromoi, since the prodromoi/sarissophoroi are generally considered to be Macedonian", "possibility that prodromoi was used as 'a generic term for light cavalry.' I would substitute skirmishers for light", all from Cavalry Operations in the Ancient Greek World, by R. E. Gaebel.

 

Regarding mixins, if you can irreversibly upgrade them such that they also change in the buildings that produce them, and show also their "particular" name somewhere, maybe it could work, but those working on it would have a better understanding on why it wouldn't.

[Emacz]

Well the game already does it for "hoplites" they have a mixin that allows all hoplites to have phalanx formation.

  <Identity>

    <Classes datatype="tokens">Hoplite</Classes>

      <Tooltip>Hoplites can use phalanx formation</Tooltip>

      <History>Hoplites were the very symbol of Hellenic prestige and citizenship, armed with a spear and a large round bronze-coated shield known as an aspis. Armor was heavy, with bronze helmets and a cuirass of either bronze or linen, in addition to greaves. Hoplites fought in a tight formation called a phalanx, guarding each other with their shields while they attacked the enemy with their 2.5 meter spear or short iron sword.</History>

     </Identity>

just add a visable class

 

  <Identity>

    <VisibleClasses datatype="tokens">Athenian</VisibleClasses>

    <Tooltip>A true citizen of Athens.</Tooltip>

  </Identity>

[Emacz]

9 minutes ago, Thalatta said:

For example, the Athenians had hippotoxotai (cavalry archers) substituted by prodromoi ("scouts") in the first half of the 4th c. BC. With the proposal, both could appear, depending on progress, but the icon, or just the "generic" name, could be the same, and quite common for most civs (Mounted Skirmisher could be an option), but the actual model would change (among civs and with progress), have different stats, and the "particular" unit name also be written somewhere, but the "generic" name would tell you basically its function. Other examples I came across just this last week is that Alexander's mounted skirmishers went from javelineers to archers, and his prodromoi apparently from javelineers to lancers. And I guess it would simplify dealing with things like the Roman Army.

You could check out what we did with  <SpecificName>Hastātus</SpecificName> for rome.  My understanding is early on they were similar to hoplites in kits and then they evolved into swordsmen.  So in p1 Hastatus = spearman and then it is replaced in p2 by Hastatus = swordsman

infantry_swordsman_b.xml infantry_spearman_b.xml

[Thalatta]

1 hour ago, Emacz said:

So in p1 Hastatus = spearman and then it is replaced in p2 by Hastatus = swordsman

Do you also have triarii units? I guess that could be useful not to just lose spearmen.

[Emacz]

48 minutes ago, Thalatta said:

Do you also have triarii units? I guess that could be useful not to just lose spearmen.

Yes, which is why I have told you to at least look at the mod  wether it be download and the structure tree, or just on github its self.

[Thalatta]

5 hours ago, Emacz said:

Yes, which is why I have told you to at least look at the mod  wether it be download and the structure tree, or just on github its self.

I haven't even looked at the Romans in vanilla yet 

[Ultimate Aurelian]

On 16/09/2026 at 9:25 AM, Emacz said:

I have thought about some of these things for Classical Warfare AEA. Was easy with Sparta, we classified them as helots and changed their stats a bit.  The question for Athens (and I would think Thebes too?)  If we were to lower their cost, how do we "penalize/balance"?  Say a Javelineer for greeks was only 30 wood (20% cheaper overal)  The Javelin would probably still do the same "dmg" right? It wasn't like they used weaker, less effective javelins?
And we have "Athenian Peltasts" and "Boiotian Pelatasts" along with the Theracian merc.

I know in some cases poorer troops used wood javelins hardened with fire but not sure this was the case with Greeks.

Less accuracy would be the best way to portray the difference in troop quality, if it's not possible i guess less damage and less range is good enough.

They could also have less HP (lighter equipment, less morale, less trained in melee combat).

Edited Tuesday at 19:51 by Ultimate Aurelian

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 21/09/2026 at 8:08 AM, Emacz said:

Couldn't you do that through a "mixin"?

No, it requires some new lines of UI code. I'm talking about having 3 different display names for each unit, and then the player could customize which two (or one) they want displayed:

SpecificName

GenericName 

ClassName 

This is different from the class system. 

 

So:

Hoplites Athanaios 

Athenian Hoplite

Spear Infantry

 

We could rename these elements if we wanted to:

EthnicName (in ancient Greek, ancient Germanic, ancient Latin, et al.)

LocalizedName (the translation based on your selected language, the same as the old "generic" name)

RoleName (so, Archer Infantry, Skirmish Cavalry, etc.)

I honestly wouldn't show all 3 in the HUD at once, but let the player decide which 2 or 1. We here could choose what the best default is, but let the player change it after that. We could show all 3 in the Unit Viewer tho. 

[Emacz]

10 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

No, it requires some new lines of UI code. I'm talking about having 3 different display names for each unit, and then the player could customize which two (or one) they want displayed:

SpecificName

GenericName 

ClassName 

This is different from the class system. 

 

So:

Hoplites Athanaios 

Athenian Hoplite

Spear Infantry

 

We could rename these elements if we wanted to:

EthnicName (in ancient Greek, ancient Germanic, ancient Latin, et al.)

LocalizedName (the translation based on your selected language, the same as the old "generic" name)

RoleName (so, Archer Infantry, Skirmish Cavalry, etc.)

I honestly wouldn't show all 3 in the HUD at once, but let the player decide which 2 or 1. We here could choose what the best default is, but let the player change it after that. We could show all 3 in the Unit Viewer tho. 

Ah ok that makes sense. Yes when using mixin it does get a little overwhelming with all the different info in there.

[Emacz]

31 minutes ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

I know in some cases poorer troops used wood javelins hardened with fire but not sure this was the case with Greeks.

Less accuracy would be the best way to portray the difference in troop quality, if it's not possible i guess less damage and less range is good enough.

They could also have less HP (lighter equipment, less morale, less trained in melee combat).

This is what we did with heltos:

Helots have 25% less range, wider spread, and 10% less damage than normal citizen infantry, but the same gather rates as civilians. They have 75 HP and cost only 40 food and 10 wood or stone. They do not receive forge techs.
But yes it doesn't make as much since for other Greek citizens fighters since they were still free citizens.  Maybe their ranged units should just take a little longer to promote than other ranged units.  And then when you combine that with hoplite tradition, you realize their infantry, hoplites in particular are a little move "valued" in their eyes.

[Ultimate Aurelian]

2 minutes ago, Emacz said:

This is what we did with heltos:

Helots have 25% less range, wider spread, and 10% less damage than normal citizen infantry, but the same gather rates as civilians. They have 75 HP and cost only 40 food and 10 wood or stone. They do not receive forge techs.
But yes it doesn't make as much since for other Greek citizens fighters since they were still free citizens.  Maybe their ranged units should just take a little longer to promote than other ranged units.  And then when you combine that with hoplite tradition, you realize their infantry, hoplites in particular are a little move "valued" in their eyes.

For slingers you could for sure give the elite ones with lead/clay bullets more damage and range than militia or tribal units with stone projectiles (EB2 does this).

 

Any more skilled unit would also probably fire a bit faster.

Does this game have accuracy mechanic? i think some of the Scythians in the DE mod dodged projectiles at least.

Edited Tuesday at 20:28 by Ultimate Aurelian

[Emacz]

1 minute ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

For slingers you could for sure give the elite ones with lead/clay bullets more damage and range than militia or tribal units with stonbe projectiles (EB2 does this).

 

Ay more skilled unit would also probably fire a bit faster.

We already have two types of sligners.  Regular stone and lead bullets.  And Baleric and Rhodian have their own boost based off those parent tempaltes.

[Vantha]

37 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

No, it requires some new lines of UI code. I'm talking about having 3 different display names for each unit, and then the player could customize which two (or one) they want displayed:

By the way, there's no issue on Gitea for this yet as far as I'm aware. Would you mind opening one?

[Thalatta]

I edited Part I to deal better with sources (first hidden bit now), and renamed the Delian League civ bonus Naucrary instead of Trierarchy, which could be another tech now. In this part I'm refining a few things regarding infantry and cavalry from Part I, but I'll deal mostly with siege engines. Most things are just name changes or design corrections, although for siege techs, compatibility with other civs would need to be checked (for those cases, in the meantime this is just meant as a record of sourced proposals). Part III will be about naval combat.

 

PART II

Spoiler

Sources:

-The Horsemen of Athens, by G. R. Bugh.

-Ancient Catapults: Some Hypotheses Reexamined, by D. B. Campbell.

-Armies of the Hellenistic States 323 BC to AD 30, by G. Esposito.

-Ancient Greek Warship 500-322 BC, by N. Fields.

-Cavalry Operations in the Ancient Greek World, by R. E. Gaebel.

-The Age of the Galley, Mediterranean Oared Vessels Since Pre-Classical Times, by R. Gardiner.

-Belopoiiká, by Heron of Alexandria.

-The Oxford Classical Dictionary, by S. Hornblower and A. Spawforth.

-The Inswinging Theory, by A. Iriarte.

-Artillery, An Illustrated History of its Impact, by J. Kinard.

-Greek and Roman Artillery, by E. W. Mardsen.

-Belopoiiká, by Philon of Bizantium.

-The Athenian Army 507-322 BC, by N. Sekunda.

-Greek and Roman Technology, A. N. Sherwood.

 

If the author is not stated, most probably it's from either:

-Greek and Roman Artillery, 399 BC-AD 363, by D. B. Campbell.

-Greek and Roman Siege Machinery, 399 BC-AD 363, by D. B. Campbell.

 

Things that should be:

-Lithobólos (Siege Catapult) should be Lithobolos (Stone Thrower): accents should be removed, as per 0 A.D. nomenclature guidelines (most of the time I'll ignore this, but it should be followed). The present name, besides not being the correct translation, is misleading for the period, given that both bolt shooters and stone throwers were katapeltikon (throw against, basically), or catapults. Actually, in this period, "catapult" is even more often used for bolt shooters, being the first to be invented, and "ballista" used for stone throwers. The name inversion more familiar to everyone started after the 2nd c. A.D.

Spoiler

"Ballistae is a term normally used for artillery that hurls stones, while catapults were loaded with bolts", from Sherwood.

"At some time during the period from A.D. 100 to 300, a change occurred in the system of nomenclature. Thus, in the fourth century A.D., catapulta indicates a one-armed stone-throwing engine, while ballista means a piece of artillery which shoots bolts only", from Mardsen.

-The Lithobolos torsion-springs shouldn't look like spirals: this makes no physical sense. Although there are a few ancient representations that also portray them incorrectly, there are plenty of representations around showing their correct appearance.

Spoiler

How it's in the game right now:

How it should be:

-The Arsenal should be called Workshop: arsenals were where various equipment was stored, while "workshop" is used in the literature for what this building is supposed to be.

Spoiler

"set up workshops to build siege-engines", from Mardsen, which he uses many times, and could quote what arsenals are from plenty of books, but it's too obvious.

 

Things that could be:

-Athenians could charge when closing in on an attack: that is, be faster, louder and more disorderly than Spartans (stance depending), considering how heavy infantry charged at Marathon, and how psiloi "charged" at Sphacteria. I think it's funny that the caricaturesque static posture of the Spartans in the movie 300 and "shock combat" of the Athenians in the sequel could appear in the game in a less exaggerated way, while having some reported merit to it.

Spoiler

At Sphacteria "the shouting of the Athenians as they charged caused consternation among the Spartans, who were accustomed to fighting in near-silence", since usually Spartans hoplites "advanced slowly and to the accompaniment of flutes (auloi) as was customary; this accompaniment kept the Spartans in step and in order", from M. Dahm.

-Epilektos (City Guard) could be Athēnaios Epilektos (Chosen Athenian, or less literally and keeping the present idea, Athenian Guard): just renaming them to make them more characteristically Athenian (there are units named similarly after all). It's not just about the name: Athens' Hellenistic infantry relied heavily on mercenaries, except for some elite volunteer hoplites, which seems to differentiate them a bit from epilektoi from other city-states. I thought about Epilektos Ethelontis (Chosen Volunteer), but I didn't want to give the impression that that made up term is an attested one (sometimes one has no choice).

Spoiler

"After defeat in the Lamian War, the Athenian Army was strongly reduced in its numbers and started to be composed almost entirely of mercenaries. The latter were supplemented by a few volunteer citizens who decided to serve as full-time soldiers; these were known as epilektoi and formed a sort of military elite", from Esposito. This is the only instance of the word "volunteer" in that book, while "epilektoi" also appears for Boeotia, the Aetolian League, the Macedonians, the Seleucids, and Ptolemaic Egypt (as "Machimoi Epilektoi", who were included in the "Ptolemaic Royal Guard").

-Hippeús (Greek Cavalryman) could be Athēnaios Hippeus (Athenian Cavalryman), and be a lancer: gameplay seems to have resulted in too many things being exactly the other way around as they should be. Athenians avoided getting way too close with cavalry (they would have swords anyway, but usually as secondary or tertiary weapons, after javelins and lance), those tactics came later with the Macedonians (possibly after the Thebans), who in turn have no cavalry swordsmen in the game!

Spoiler

'Athenian representations of cavalrymen from the first third of the 4th century (...) depict cavalrymen equipped with a combination of two javelins and a distinctively long combat spear", "the spear must have been rather unwieldy when used against enemy cavalry, against whom the two javelins would be used in preference", and "in a number of the ancient Greek lexica, kamax is listed alongside other words for spear and is defined as 'a cavalry spear' or a 'straight pike'", while to fight cavalry "by the second quarter of the century the traditional cavalry spear had been replaced by another model, called a xyston, or 'whittled' spear. It was used by the Macedonian cavalry at the battle of the Granicus in 334", from Sekunda.

"Greek cavalry of this period almost certainly lacked nerve, a fearless, aggressive mentality that was essential if horsemen were to engage in close combat with spear and sword. Such qualities do not seem to have been common among cavalrymen until the rise of Macedon under Philip", from Gaebel.

-Pródromos (Cavalry Javelineer) could be Athēnaios Prodromos (Athenian Scout): I ended deciding for this name instead of Hippakontistēs (Cavalry Javelineer) since that's not actually attested (but for tournament situations, and after all, most cavalry were expected to use javelins). Although to be prodromos is more of a role that goes beyond just literally scouting, this is also how the corps is referred to (like saying that the Boy Scouts are scouts and more), and they are not mentioned that often for others except Macedonians (being later referred as lancers, as I've quoted before).

Spoiler

"The prodromoi or 'scouts' were a branch of the Athenian cavalry", from Sekunda.

"Sometime between 395 and the 360s, the Athenians apparently decided to abolish the corps of mounted bowmen and replace them with more traditionally equipped hippeis called prodromoi, 'front-runners' literally, who functioned as skirmishers and perhaps scouts", from Bugh.

-Tachunautousa Triērēs (Swift Sailing Trireme) could be an early remarkable ramming ship: it could be less literally and more helpfully translated as "Swift Ramming Trireme". The tachunautousai were the top trireme rating, strongly associated with Athens, for which ramming was their preferred tactic, although also rendered somewhat ineffective by the Hellenistic period, as will be explained in Part III. Their garrison should be reduced, or even completely removed while increasing their population cost to account for optimal performance at all times, which is one of the reasons I proposed somewhere else to extend champions to ships and siege engines.

Spoiler

Regarding Athens, "the triremes stationed in each of the three naval harbours were divided into four ratings: 'firsts', 'seconds', 'thirds', and 'select'. The latter, also called tachunautousai, 'fast-sailing', were lightly built, especially agile craft used on special missions such as spearheading surprise attacks in formal battles, or running down the ravenous packs of pirates. Together with the 'firsts' they formed the cream of the fleet. Next to them came the amply serviceable 'seconds'. The Athenians were thoroughly mindful of keeping their ships properly maintained and repaired", from Gardiner.

"There were two main methods of fighting, which placed contradictory demands on trireme design. The first was ramming, which called for the smallest possible ship built around the largest number of oarsmen. Using a minimum number of marines, the Athenian navy followed this philosophy. The second method was boarding, which required larger, heavier ships capable of carrying the maximum number of boarders", from Fields.

"Athens' light triremes had carried only 14 or so marines, and even the heavier triremes limited themselves to 30 or 40".

-The Oxybelēs is being represented by an early tension design: the oxybelēs would soon use a torsion mechanism mid-4th century B.C., looking like the present Lithobolos, which would completely supersede the tension design by the end of the 3rd century B.C., according to Mardsen. A further advancement would be the Polybolos, which had a magazine to increase shooting rate (could be just a tech).

-The Lithobolos is being represented by a dubious design: this is still quite the controversy, but extremely illuminating, and could be used to differentiate units better. Regarding Roman terms, "the Greek bolt-shooting euthytone thus became the catapulta, and the stone-throwing palintone, the Ballista", from Kinard. Campbell and others state similar things, but what palintone exactly means is still debated: initially in his book he takes the conservative position that it had just to do with the orientation of the springs (hard to see in a game), and was a bigger version, necessary to more slowly transfer energy to somewhat equivalently worthy heavier stones. But a few years later (2011), Campbell takes the "French" position (https://www.researchgate.net/publication/307732119_The_inswinging_theory, by Iriarte), stating that "this solution, at once etymologically elegant and strikingly logical, has come to be known as 'the inswinging theory,' in which the catapult arms point forward when at rest, and are drawn inward during the spanning process", even claiming, when later discussing the onager, that "as in the case of the Hellenistic stone-projector, a brilliantly perceptive French design was sidelined by inferior German and English versions". Figures 3 and 4 in https://sciences.gloubik.info/spip.php?article1600 show both configurations clearly. In addition, palintones would eventually shoot heavy bolts (by changing their sliders), being a more powerful, although complicated, configuration.

Spoiler

Thus, the units being used right now could represent the tension and torsion oxybelēs only, while the (always torsion) lithobolos could be represented like this:

And a later bigger version of this one could switch between large stones and arrows. None of this is to say that things were only this way, but the position that most catapults followed these designs seems to make more sense and is gaining adherents.

-Advanced Siege could be Lepides Sidērai (Iron Plates): the present name doesn't say anything, and it was really tricky to connect how the Lithobolos and Ram crush damage could even increase with the same tech, but regarding stone-throwers I read "Heron advises iron-plating any points of stress on the machine", from Campbell, and remembered that his other book stated "it is assumed that the vulnerable tip would have been reinforced with iron plating" regarding later rams. I've found critical point iron-plating references on many manuals while searching for something else.

Spoiler

I extracted, used the nominative (not sure if correctly or if I missed that on other names) and transliterated "iron plates" from "λεπίδας σιδηρᾶς ἐπιθεῖναι καὶ ἥλοις συνκοινοῦν", which translates as "to attach iron plates and fasten them together with nails", from Heron (but an Ancient Greek speaker should check my take).

-Siegecraft could be Organopoioi (Mechanicians): also doesn't say absolutely anything. For a construction time bonus, "the art of those who construct the siege machines necessary for war (organopoioi), they too are termed mechanicians", from Sherwood.

-Armour Plating could be Ōmon Derma (Raw Hide): to differentiate it better from the Iron Plates proposal, and many recommend for protection and fire-proofing for the big engines over iron-cladding because of weight.

Spoiler

"The whole machine was covered with rawhide as a defence against fire", "padded with wool-stuffed rawhide, like mattresses, to absorb the shock of enemy artillery fire", "the machine was protected by padded rawhide, which would certainly have been a lighter and less costly means of fireproofing", "Athenaeus prescribes an overall cushion of rawhide, padded with seaweed vinegar-soaked chaff, both to absorb the impact of missiles and as a defence against fire", "Vegetius advises those opposing a siege tower to strip off the rawhide, whereupon the machine would be vulnerable to burning", from Campbell.

-Military Engineers could be Aphaireta Merē (Detachable Parts): to facilitate dismantling and transportation, as recommended in many Artillery Manuals (Belopoiika), this being another of my candidate names for this tech. I also wanted to leave more open the possible addition of Mēchanikoi (Engineers) units to build certain big siege engines in the field, as many have proposed in the past.

Spoiler

I extracted and transliterated "detachable parts" comparing "Γίνεται δὲ τὰ πλείστα μέρη τοῦ παντὸς ὀργάνου ἀφαιρετά" with "Most parts of the complete engine are removable", from Heron (but an Ancient Greek speaker should check my take).

-Bolt Accuracy could be Odontōtai Choinikides (Toothed Washers): again, the present name handwaves how exactly that would even be achieved. Washers are the discs through where the cords are threaded, their stability being important for consistent aim. To lock them, "teeth" were used after some point, and this was further developed with pin-holes (Trypētai Choinikides (Perforated Washers) could be an additional tech for more siege-oriented civs). I made up these names because these details appear only in archaeology, I think.

Spoiler

When talking about bolt-shooters, "the main characteristic of the torsion catapult was the set of four bronze washers (choinikides), which sat in the spring-frame". "It is the style of locking device that shows the clearest development", going from "ratchet teeth" "probably designed to lock with a pair of pawls", "later adapted by cutting four rectangular notches", "to stop the washer turning", followed by "an altogether more trustworthy locking method" "perforated with a series of pin-holes", from Cambell.

-Naval Oxybeles could be Marine Catapult, but better if just removed: since not only the oxybeles was used, and to use the same terminology used by Morrison, and not just the same name as in Age of Mythology. Actually I disagree with having this tech at all, one should just have catapults mounted on heavier warships (explained in the coming Part III).

 

Things that could also be considered:

-Conscription at the Stable could also be Sitos (Fodder Allowance) or Katastasis (Establishment Grant): better alternatives to what was proposed in Part I, since the Hippeia (Cavalry Class) appeared in the early 6th c. B.C. (before the start of the game), while these are part of 5th c. B.C. Athenian cavalry reforms.

Spoiler

"abandonment of military conscription by the Athenians at the end of the fourth century", from Bugh.

"The cavalry, like the hoplites, were not paid a regular wage, but unlike the hoplites they were given a daily fodder allowance (sitos) of one drachma in times of peace or war alike. The expansion of the cavalry was facilitated by the introduction of the katastasis or 'establishment grant', which the Athenian cavalryman received upon joining the corps", from Sekunda.

"the state still continued to support them with the system of katastasis and the sitos allowances", from Bugh.

-Eleusinia Mystēria (Eleusinian Mysteries), could be a civ bonus: this was an important panhellenic religious cult, and under Athenian control. Temples could give a food trickle, have improved healing aura, or produce units faster, for example, whatever makes sense.

Spoiler

"The modal form, the Eleusinian mysteries, was a full and regular part of Athenian civic cult from the late 6th cent. BC, institutionalizing many aspects of religious aspiration". "Corn also symbolized the recurring cycle of vegetation in the Eleusinian mysteries but acquired moral and political overtones after 600 BC under Orphic influence and after the annexation of Eleusis by Athens", and "at the Eleusinian Mysteries aparchai of wheat and barley are requested of all Athenians, allies, and even other Greeks", from Hornblower and Spawforth.

-An alternative approach to techs: in https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/34903-civ-spartans/page/3/#comment-760784 there was some discussion regarding techs unlocking units, and I ran into this "necessity" when trying to make sense of catapult evolution and how the game presently works, given that engines would look quite different after certain developments. An alternative approach would be to have some techs changing units (besides the usual techs improving them and the less common unlocking them). For siege engines, one would start with the Gastraphetēs, and then the Tension Oxybelēs (as they are right now). After researching a Torsion Springs tech, the Tension Oxybelēs would change to the Torsion Oxybelēs (which should look like a small Lithobolos), and the Lithobolos would be unlocked (which should use the French palintone design previously discussed). Later on the Polybolos (with magazine) could appear (either as an Oxybelēs change or unit unlock), and a final Heavy Catapult could later be unlocked (larger but slower) that could change between large stones and arrows. I know it seems too much, but I'm mentioning it for the sake of catapult clarity and completeness (and for whoever wants to implement things like these in their mod).

 

Other information that might be useful:

(All quotes from Sekunda).

-Torch-Races for infantry speed bonuses: "we have evidence for three ephebic torch-races before the reform of the ephēbeia in 335, connected with the festivals of Prometheus, Hephaistos and Pan".

-I think somewhere I mentioned Athenians would use "A" or "ATH" as shield devices, there's also evidence for an eye, a gorgon, a star and a laurel wreath.

Spoiler

"Around the middle of the 5th century, it became fashionable to paint an 'apotropaic' eye on the shield, to look out for incoming missiles", and "numerous references are made to the gorgoneion shield device on Lamachus' shield", although depictions of the gorgoneion shield device are rather rare in Athenian vase-paintings", "around the middle of the 5th century, hoplite shield devices become confined to a narrow range of symbols, a star or a laurel wreath being the favourites".

-Ephippios (Saddlecloth), Af'Hippou Akuntizonti (Mounted Javelin-Throwing) and Aphippolampada (Mounted Torch-Race) techs to improve cavalry: by 500 B.C. Athens didn't have yet a navy, nor proper cavalry, these were developments from the 5th c. BC. I like the idea of having lots of techs, for the player to think what to choose given different situations, otherwise everything devolves into mindless build/research order memorisation, or worse, just clicking what's affordable. Both should be penalised for a more strategic gameplay. These early techs should make Athens cavalry fast and accurate among Greeks early on, the problem is that the game is quite fast and by the mid game the Thebans, and later the Macedonians, should have better cavalry. In any case, this might be useful at some point for some.

Spoiler

"Proper saddles only came into use in the Roman period, but prior to that the saddlecloth (ephippios) had gradually come into use, at first in the Achaemenid Empire, and then among the Greeks and the other peoples that were living near it", while "Alcibiades, fond of luxury and extravagance, was living ahead of his time in acquiring these saddlecloths". Also "the competition called 'javelin-throwing from horseback' (af'hippou akuntizonti) is mentioned by Xenophon (Hipp.1.26) and in an inscription dating to the early 4th century" and "in the autumn of 413 might be the occasion on which the mounted torch-race (aphippolampada) at the Bendideia was introduced, and it could also be when the 'javelin-throwing from horseback' competition was introduced into the Panathenaic Games", although "the mounted torch-race may not long have survived".

-"In Athens, a slave society, it was normal for an individual citizen of sufficient wealth to serve as a hoplite and to have his own personal slave. In time of war, the slave would carry the hoplite’s bedding and rations for him. Usually referred to as skeuophoroi, or 'baggage carriers' in our texts, the slaves would participate in the battle only if an unusual opportunity arose. Their essential role was recognized by the Athenian state".

-It's good to bear in mind that, after a few decades where heavy armour seemed to be less common, "in the 360s, Athenian funerary reliefs start to show hoplites wearing muscle-cuirasses and 'Phrygian' helmets", "muscle-cuirass is universal, but there is a large diversity in the arrangement of the groin-flaps and the shape of the shoulder-guards", "some type of enabling legislation must have existed to force the adoption of the muscle-cuirass on the Athenian citizenry who served in the infantry".

-"I imagine that the Athenian cavalry had adopted the Boeotian helmet by 362, and this was the reason why the Theban horse who opposed them at the battle of Mantineia painted their helmets white to identify themselves".

 

@Arup, as the self proclaimed biggest worshipper of Athena, let us know what do you think is more worth considering regarding gameplay (although most of my proposals are just renames or design corrections, I think). I guess some points would change how the Athenians actually play, but I think they should be a fairly fast civ for Greek standards, with their decent early cavalry skirmishers, other missile support and swift ramming ships, while also having a solid infantry that, according to the stories, would make a sprint for it if needed. Right now I find it confusingly sword heavy, since neither the Marines nor Sword Cavalry correspond to anything realistic for them, while an eventual lack of swords would balance better with their Long Walls (and swords are really needed, maybe the Athenian Guard could switch between spear and sword, or better, the Iphicratean Hoplite proposed in Part I could switch between long-spear/proto-pike and sword).

Edited 1 hour ago by Thalatta

[Arup]

@Thalatta I assume you are talking about delenda right? since the vanilla doesn't have... like, half of these things in the first place. other than that,yes these are mostly name or design changes and personally, I don't mind it either way, especially the designs... it's good that you can point it out but I'm not sure someone is willing to create brand new designs for one of the oldest civs in the game... I do have something to say abt the few balance changes I could see:

no, under no circumstances should a mini ram boat be made. we already know what is happening with the scout ship. this mini ram ship will be the new ultimate spam. just, no.

 

that temple bonus you were talking about... yes, I'm always up for something to make each civ more unique! perhaps the temple could get a tech that increases their radius and/or increases their heal per second. ah and, Chosen Athenian sounds a soo much cooler than "city guard" lol i definitely want to see that change 

Edited 1 hour ago by Arup

[Thalatta]

Just now, Arup said:

@Thalatta I assume you are talking about delenda right? since the vanilla doesn't have... like, half of these things in the first place

Corrections of what is wrongly done in vanilla should apply to vanilla.

Changes of what is not quite accurate in vanilla would also ideally apply to it, after gameplay considerations.

Additions of what vanilla doesn't have in the first place could of course be considered, or just left as mod material. I tend to mention interesting or important things I come across, independently of any gameplay considerations (that part I leave to others).

[Thalatta]

43 minutes ago, Arup said:

no, under no circumstances should a mini ram boat be made. we already know what is happening with the scout ship. this mini ram ship will be the new ultimate spam.

I'm not sure what you mean by "mini", it wouldn't be actually "smaller", but "lighter". It should be the same as current ramming ships, but faster (thus maybe deal more damage), while taking more time and resources to produce, and have less garrison slots (all aligned with what was an attested Athenian advantage). Surely these things can be changed to something that's champion level but not OP? There's that idea of no garrison slots at all and to categorise such machines as "champion", to give a clear indication that they are full-time combatants, not really transport.

 

43 minutes ago, Arup said:

were talking about... yes, I'm always up for something to make each civ more unique! perhaps the temple could get a tech that increases their radius and/or increases their heal per second.

Indeed, radius increase and/or healing per second is a good choice, considering how influential that was.

 

43 minutes ago, Arup said:

Chosen Athenian sounds a soo much cooler than "city guard" lol i definitely want to see that change 

Yeah, "City Guard" sounds like a guy lighting up street lamps at night... Chosen Athenian seems the strongest contender, and closer to what's attested.