Thoughts on the Athenians

[Vantha]

4 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I've desired this for a long time. A decade.

I know. I'm currently working on too many other things to implement it myself, but if anyone does (preferably without an LLM) I would be happy to review and merge it. I suppose the main question is where and how big to display each of the names.

[Emacz]

4 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I've desired this for a long time. A decade.

Couldn't you do that through a "mixin"?

[Thalatta]

1 hour ago, Emacz said:

Couldn't you do that through a "mixin"?

I think the point could be to keep selectable options limited and uniform among civs, while allowing for actual differentiation and evolution if wanted. I've come across this issue so many times, and one has to end anachronistically simplify things, which could indeed be solved if "a unit can represent more than just the soldiers equipped in the exact same way".

For example, the Athenians had hippotoxotai (cavalry archers) substituted by prodromoi ("scouts") in the first half of the 4th c. BC. With the proposal, both could appear, depending on progress, but the icon, or just the "generic" name, could be the same, and quite common for most civs (Mounted Skirmisher could be an option), but the actual model would change (among civs and with progress), have different stats, and the "particular" unit name also be written somewhere, but the "generic" name would tell you basically its function. Other examples I came across just this last week is that Alexander's mounted skirmishers went from javelineers to archers, and his prodromoi apparently from javelineers to lancers. And I guess it would simplify dealing with things like the Roman Army.

Spoiler

Some of this was going to be mentioned in Part II, but now it's here. Regarding Alexander's prodromoi, after treating them as skirmishers for some time, "this last mention of prodromoi by Arrian creates something of a problem. The alternate name for them, sarissophoroi", "lancers comprising prodromoi", "Arrian usually distinguishes between Paeonians and prodromoi, but that could be no more than an effort to distinguish ethnic from Macedonian prodromoi, since the prodromoi/sarissophoroi are generally considered to be Macedonian", "possibility that prodromoi was used as 'a generic term for light cavalry.' I would substitute skirmishers for light", all from Cavalry Operations in the Ancient Greek World, by R. E. Gaebel.

 

Regarding mixins, if you can irreversibly upgrade them such that they also change in the buildings that produce them, and show also their "particular" name somewhere, maybe it could work, but those working on it would have a better understanding on why it wouldn't.

[Emacz]

Well the game already does it for "hoplites" they have a mixin that allows all hoplites to have phalanx formation.

  <Identity>

    <Classes datatype="tokens">Hoplite</Classes>

      <Tooltip>Hoplites can use phalanx formation</Tooltip>

      <History>Hoplites were the very symbol of Hellenic prestige and citizenship, armed with a spear and a large round bronze-coated shield known as an aspis. Armor was heavy, with bronze helmets and a cuirass of either bronze or linen, in addition to greaves. Hoplites fought in a tight formation called a phalanx, guarding each other with their shields while they attacked the enemy with their 2.5 meter spear or short iron sword.</History>

     </Identity>

just add a visable class

 

  <Identity>

    <VisibleClasses datatype="tokens">Athenian</VisibleClasses>

    <Tooltip>A true citizen of Athens.</Tooltip>

  </Identity>

[Emacz]

9 minutes ago, Thalatta said:

For example, the Athenians had hippotoxotai (cavalry archers) substituted by prodromoi ("scouts") in the first half of the 4th c. BC. With the proposal, both could appear, depending on progress, but the icon, or just the "generic" name, could be the same, and quite common for most civs (Mounted Skirmisher could be an option), but the actual model would change (among civs and with progress), have different stats, and the "particular" unit name also be written somewhere, but the "generic" name would tell you basically its function. Other examples I came across just this last week is that Alexander's mounted skirmishers went from javelineers to archers, and his prodromoi apparently from javelineers to lancers. And I guess it would simplify dealing with things like the Roman Army.

You could check out what we did with  <SpecificName>Hastātus</SpecificName> for rome.  My understanding is early on they were similar to hoplites in kits and then they evolved into swordsmen.  So in p1 Hastatus = spearman and then it is replaced in p2 by Hastatus = swordsman

infantry_swordsman_b.xml infantry_spearman_b.xml

[Thalatta]

1 hour ago, Emacz said:

So in p1 Hastatus = spearman and then it is replaced in p2 by Hastatus = swordsman

Do you also have triarii units? I guess that could be useful not to just lose spearmen.

[Emacz]

48 minutes ago, Thalatta said:

Do you also have triarii units? I guess that could be useful not to just lose spearmen.

Yes, which is why I have told you to at least look at the mod  wether it be download and the structure tree, or just on github its self.

[Thalatta]

5 hours ago, Emacz said:

Yes, which is why I have told you to at least look at the mod  wether it be download and the structure tree, or just on github its self.

I haven't even looked at the Romans in vanilla yet 

[Ultimate Aurelian]

On 16/09/2026 at 9:25 AM, Emacz said:

I have thought about some of these things for Classical Warfare AEA. Was easy with Sparta, we classified them as helots and changed their stats a bit.  The question for Athens (and I would think Thebes too?)  If we were to lower their cost, how do we "penalize/balance"?  Say a Javelineer for greeks was only 30 wood (20% cheaper overal)  The Javelin would probably still do the same "dmg" right? It wasn't like they used weaker, less effective javelins?
And we have "Athenian Peltasts" and "Boiotian Pelatasts" along with the Theracian merc.

I know in some cases poorer troops used wood javelins hardened with fire but not sure this was the case with Greeks.

Less accuracy would be the best way to portray the difference in troop quality, if it's not possible i guess less damage and less range is good enough.

They could also have less HP (lighter equipment, less morale, less trained in melee combat).

Edited 42 minutes ago by Ultimate Aurelian

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 21/09/2026 at 8:08 AM, Emacz said:

Couldn't you do that through a "mixin"?

No, it requires some new lines of UI code. I'm talking about having 3 different display names for each unit, and then the player could customize which two (or one) they want displayed:

SpecificName

GenericName 

ClassName 

This is different from the class system. 

 

So:

Hoplites Athanaios 

Athenian Hoplite

Spear Infantry

 

We could rename these elements if we wanted to:

EthnicName (in ancient Greek, ancient Germanic, ancient Latin, et al.)

LocalizedName (the translation based on your selected language, the same as the old "generic" name)

RoleName (so, Archer Infantry, Skirmish Cavalry, etc.)

I honestly wouldn't show all 3 in the HUD at once, but let the player decide which 2 or 1. We here could choose what the best default is, but let the player change it after that. We could show all 3 in the Unit Viewer tho. 

[Emacz]

10 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

No, it requires some new lines of UI code. I'm talking about having 3 different display names for each unit, and then the player could customize which two (or one) they want displayed:

SpecificName

GenericName 

ClassName 

This is different from the class system. 

 

So:

Hoplites Athanaios 

Athenian Hoplite

Spear Infantry

 

We could rename these elements if we wanted to:

EthnicName (in ancient Greek, ancient Germanic, ancient Latin, et al.)

LocalizedName (the translation based on your selected language, the same as the old "generic" name)

RoleName (so, Archer Infantry, Skirmish Cavalry, etc.)

I honestly wouldn't show all 3 in the HUD at once, but let the player decide which 2 or 1. We here could choose what the best default is, but let the player change it after that. We could show all 3 in the Unit Viewer tho. 

Ah ok that makes sense. Yes when using mixin it does get a little overwhelming with all the different info in there.

[Emacz]

31 minutes ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

I know in some cases poorer troops used wood javelins hardened with fire but not sure this was the case with Greeks.

Less accuracy would be the best way to portray the difference in troop quality, if it's not possible i guess less damage and less range is good enough.

They could also have less HP (lighter equipment, less morale, less trained in melee combat).

This is what we did with heltos:

Helots have 25% less range, wider spread, and 10% less damage than normal citizen infantry, but the same gather rates as civilians. They have 75 HP and cost only 40 food and 10 wood or stone. They do not receive forge techs.
But yes it doesn't make as much since for other Greek citizens fighters since they were still free citizens.  Maybe their ranged units should just take a little longer to promote than other ranged units.  And then when you combine that with hoplite tradition, you realize their infantry, hoplites in particular are a little move "valued" in their eyes.

[Ultimate Aurelian]

2 minutes ago, Emacz said:

This is what we did with heltos:

Helots have 25% less range, wider spread, and 10% less damage than normal citizen infantry, but the same gather rates as civilians. They have 75 HP and cost only 40 food and 10 wood or stone. They do not receive forge techs.
But yes it doesn't make as much since for other Greek citizens fighters since they were still free citizens.  Maybe their ranged units should just take a little longer to promote than other ranged units.  And then when you combine that with hoplite tradition, you realize their infantry, hoplites in particular are a little move "valued" in their eyes.

For slingers you could for sure give the elite ones with lead/clay bullets more damage and range than militia or tribal units with stone projectiles (EB2 does this).

 

Any more skilled unit would also probably fire a bit faster.

Does this game have accuracy mechanic? i think some of the Scythians in the DE mod dodged projectiles at least.

Edited 5 minutes ago by Ultimate Aurelian

[Emacz]

1 minute ago, Ultimate Aurelian said:

For slingers you could for sure give the elite ones with lead/clay bullets more damage and range than militia or tribal units with stonbe projectiles (EB2 does this).

 

Ay more skilled unit would also probably fire a bit faster.

We already have two types of sligners.  Regular stone and lead bullets.  And Baleric and Rhodian have their own boost based off those parent tempaltes.