Thoughts on the Athenians

[Vantha]

4 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I've desired this for a long time. A decade.

I know. I'm currently working on too many other things to implement it myself, but if anyone does (preferably without an LLM) I would be happy to review and merge it. I suppose the main question is where and how big to display each of the names.

[Emacz]

4 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I've desired this for a long time. A decade.

Couldn't you do that through a "mixin"?

[Thalatta]

1 hour ago, Emacz said:

Couldn't you do that through a "mixin"?

I think the point could be to keep selectable options limited and uniform among civs, while allowing for actual differentiation and evolution if wanted. I've come across this issue so many times, and one has to end anachronistically simplify things, which could indeed be solved if "a unit can represent more than just the soldiers equipped in the exact same way".

For example, the Athenians had hippotoxotai (cavalry archers) substituted by prodromoi ("scouts") in the first half of the 4th c. BC. With the proposal, both could appear, depending on progress, but the icon, or just the "generic" name, could be the same, and quite common for most civs (Mounted Skirmisher could be an option), but the actual model would change (among civs and with progress), have different stats, and the "particular" unit name also be written somewhere, but the "generic" name would tell you basically its function. Other examples I came across just this last week is that Alexander's mounted skirmishers went from javelineers to archers, and his prodromoi apparently from javelineers to lancers. And I guess it would simplify dealing with things like the Roman Army.

Spoiler

Some of this was going to be mentioned in Part II, but now it's here. Regarding Alexander's prodromoi, after treating them as skirmishers for some time, "this last mention of prodromoi by Arrian creates something of a problem. The alternate name for them, sarissophoroi", "lancers comprising prodromoi", "Arrian usually distinguishes between Paeonians and prodromoi, but that could be no more than an effort to distinguish ethnic from Macedonian prodromoi, since the prodromoi/sarissophoroi are generally considered to be Macedonian", "possibility that prodromoi was used as 'a generic term for light cavalry.' I would substitute skirmishers for light", all from Cavalry Operations in the Ancient Greek World, by R. E. Gaebel.

 

Regarding mixins, if you can irreversibly upgrade them such that they also change in the buildings that produce them, and show also their "particular" name somewhere, maybe it could work, but those working on it would have a better understanding on why it wouldn't.

[Emacz]

Well the game already does it for "hoplites" they have a mixin that allows all hoplites to have phalanx formation.

  <Identity>

    <Classes datatype="tokens">Hoplite</Classes>

      <Tooltip>Hoplites can use phalanx formation</Tooltip>

      <History>Hoplites were the very symbol of Hellenic prestige and citizenship, armed with a spear and a large round bronze-coated shield known as an aspis. Armor was heavy, with bronze helmets and a cuirass of either bronze or linen, in addition to greaves. Hoplites fought in a tight formation called a phalanx, guarding each other with their shields while they attacked the enemy with their 2.5 meter spear or short iron sword.</History>

     </Identity>

just add a visable class

 

  <Identity>

    <VisibleClasses datatype="tokens">Athenian</VisibleClasses>

    <Tooltip>A true citizen of Athens.</Tooltip>

  </Identity>

[Emacz]

9 minutes ago, Thalatta said:

For example, the Athenians had hippotoxotai (cavalry archers) substituted by prodromoi ("scouts") in the first half of the 4th c. BC. With the proposal, both could appear, depending on progress, but the icon, or just the "generic" name, could be the same, and quite common for most civs (Mounted Skirmisher could be an option), but the actual model would change (among civs and with progress), have different stats, and the "particular" unit name also be written somewhere, but the "generic" name would tell you basically its function. Other examples I came across just this last week is that Alexander's mounted skirmishers went from javelineers to archers, and his prodromoi apparently from javelineers to lancers. And I guess it would simplify dealing with things like the Roman Army.

You could check out what we did with  <SpecificName>Hastātus</SpecificName> for rome.  My understanding is early on they were similar to hoplites in kits and then they evolved into swordsmen.  So in p1 Hastatus = spearman and then it is replaced in p2 by Hastatus = swordsman

infantry_swordsman_b.xml infantry_spearman_b.xml