Potentially Offensive Visual Content

[desmotes]

I didn't find the official publication yet, but, to use a right-wing/conservative newspaper as reliable source without suspicion of too much antifascist propaganda, here's what the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (one of the leading newspapers in Germany) said:

"Unverändert hoch, aber nicht stark gestiegen, ist die Zahl der Straftaten, die von Rechtsextremisten begangen wurden, nämlich annähernd 17.000. Das entspricht einem Zuwachs gegenüber 2010 um drei Prozent.

Insgesamt wurden 2011 mehr als 30.000 politisch motivierte Straftaten gemeldet. Das entsprach einem Anstieg um elf Prozent. Damit ist 2011 das Jahr mit den meisten politischen Delikten seit der Einführung des Erfassungssystems 2001. Das Innenministerium sprach am Freitag von einem „neuen Höchstwert“. Immer öfter wurden Personen tätlich angegriffen und verletzt. Die Zahl der Gewalttaten, die von Links- und Rechtsextremisten oder Islamisten verübten, stieg um annähernd 18 Prozent auf 3108 Delikte. In 1284 Fällen waren Polizisten Ziele gewalttätiger Angriffe. Etwa die Hälfte der Taten waren so genannte Propagandadelikte, also Parolen-Schmierereien oder das Zeigen von verfassungsfeindlichen Symbolen wie das Hakenkreuz. Etwa ein Viertel der verzeichneten Straftaten waren Sachbeschädigungen."

http://www.faz.net/a...n-11747777.html

Translation:

"Still high, but not increasing that much, is the number of offenses done by right extremists, which is almost 17.000. That's about 3% more than in 2010.

All in all, there have been more than 30.000 politically motivated criminal acts reported. That means a rise of 11%. By this, 2011 is the year with the most political criminal acts since introduction of these statistics in 2001. The Ministry of Domestic Affairs said it was a "new record". More and more often, people are attacked and injured. The number of acts of violence done be leftist and rightist extremists as well as islamists, has risen by 18% to 3108. In 1284 of those cases, policemen were target of these attacks. About half of the offenses were so called "propaganda delicts", which means paroles, graffitis or other display of anticonstitutional symbols like the swastica. About a fourth of the offences were damage of property."

Addendum: Prosecution of display of the swastica and such, where the offender couldn't be identified, don't go into this statitic, only when the actor could be found guilty of a political offense.

Edited December 8, 2012 by desmotes

[Mythos_Ruler]

These examples seem to only muddy the waters.

Let's just make a Germany version and be done with it.

[Pureon]

I can send out a status asking for pro bono legal advice from a German attorney.

Yes lets do that. Too much guesswork and opinion happening here.

[Almin]

I didn't find the official publication yet, but, to use a right-wing/conservative newspaper as reliable source without suspicion of too much antifascist propaganda, here's what the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung (one of the leading newspapers in Germany) said:

http://www.faz.net/a...n-11747777.html

Addendum: Prosecution of display of the swastica and such, where the offender couldn't be identified, don't go into this statitic, only when the actor could be found guilty of a political offense.

So again, I'm also from Germany and I do not think that this example is in any way related to our current situation. Sorry, I don't want to offend you, but § 86 StGB clearly states:

(2) Propagandamittel im Sinne des Absatzes 1 sind nur solche Schriften (§ 11 Abs. 3), deren Inhalt gegen die freiheitliche demokratische Grundordnung oder den Gedanken der Völkerverständigung gerichtet ist.

source: http://www.gesetze-i.../stgb/__86.html

In english:

(2) Propaganda materials within the meaning of subsection (1) above shall only be written materials (section 11(3)) the content of which is directed against the free, democratic constitutional order or the idea of the comity of nations.

source: http://www.gesetze-i...stgb.html#p0823

This is clearly not the case in a videogame, completely independent of whether it is art or not. Additionally the content of the game is not related to the time of national socialism at all, so it should be obvious that the cases of using these symbols like you are complaining just do not fit here, imho. It's not the case that there is any kind of agitation in the game.

I don't need to quote (3) and (4) again, if you're interested you can follow the link above, but they do approve what I just wrote.

[leper]

§ 86a

[Almin]

ups, sry, then:

Kennzeichen im Sinne des Absatzes 1 sind namentlich Fahnen, Abzeichen, Uniformstücke, Parolen und Grußformen. Den in Satz 1 genannten Kennzeichen stehen solche gleich, die ihnen zum Verwechseln ähnlich sind.

in english:

(2) Symbols within the meaning of subsection (1) above shall be in particular flags,insignia, uniforms and their parts, slogans and forms of greeting. Symbols which are so similar as to be mistaken for those named in the 1st sentence shall be equivalent to them.

same sources, but doesn't change anything about the argumentation. thx

edit: exact sources:

http://dejure.org/ge...e/StGB/86a.html

http://www.gesetze-i...stgb.html#p0832

Edited December 9, 2012 by Almin

[leper]

Well, but § 86a (2) clearly states "Den in Satz 1 genannten Kennzeichen stehen solche gleich, die ihnen zum Verwechseln ähnlich sind." which is the case here. § 86a (3) only references § 86 (3) and (4) and not (2).

[Almin]

I agree to the references you mentioned, but imho the second sentence of (2) (the one you've quoted) doesn't have any significance for the argumentation, which is that these symbols are not used for propaganda, agitation or similar use cases in any way. But this is what counts or is important, at least according to § 86a (1) 2.:

"Gegenstände, die derartige Kennzeichen darstellen oder enthalten, zur Verbreitung oder Verwendung im Inland oder Ausland in der in Nummer 1 bezeichneten Art und Weise herstellt, vorrätig hält, einführt oder ausführt."

edit: Ups, wrong quote source, fixed it, sorry!

Edited December 9, 2012 by Almin

[leper]

Just curious, but have you read my earlier post?

Auch im Fall einer neutralen Verwendung hat der Senat eine ähnliche Einschränkung vorgenommen. [..] hat er entscheidend auf die "massenhafte Verbreitung" abgestellt und diese für unzulässig erklärt (BGHSt 28, 394, 397).

The only legal uses not stated in § 86 (3) are those with a neutral use (without mass distribution, which one could argue that we do) or with a clear objective opposition.

§ 86a (2) would basically make everyone that packages it and everyone that downloads it in Germany commit a crime.

[fabio]

All the offending contents are not an essential part of the game, so if someone may be offended just remove them. No one will miss the swastika on a shield.

[Almin]

Just curious, but have you read my earlier post?

The only legal uses not stated in § 86 (3) are those with a neutral use (without mass distribution, which one could argue that we do) or with a clear objective opposition.

§ 86a (2) would basically make everyone that packages it and everyone that downloads it in Germany commit a crime.

To answer your question: Yes, I did read your comment.

I think we understand § 86 (3) differently. I agree that we do mass distribution, but that's not important as long as our goal is not to distribute the material with a meaning or background of the nazi regime. That is what I think is meant with: "für die Zwecke einer der in den Nummern 1 und 2 bezeichneten Parteien oder Vereinigungen".

And we do not act like that. The time around 1930-1950 doesn't even play a single role in 0 A.D.

But even if we would have that background of WWII in the game it wouldn't mind. Even the Bundesprüfstelle is of the opinion that swatiskas in videogames shouldn't be seen as illegal:

http://www.bundespru...de,rwb=true.pdf

It also still remains the fact that 0 A.D. is obviously art and culture and therefore freed from this censorship (because of § 86(3) through § 86a(3)).

sources that show that the Kulturrat(Cultural High Council) accepted videogames as cultural goods:

The Association of german Game Developers ("GAME") is part of it. Look for "GAME - Bundesverband deutscher Computerspielentwickler" on the website of the council:

http://www.kulturrat...il=171&rubrik=1

An additional article from quite a well-known german newspaper:

http://www.spiegel.d...r-a-572152.html

But now from a completely different standpoint apart from the law: Even if we would have a mod with the swastika of WW2. They are no problem in literature (even for the youth), they are no problem in school history or politics lessons, they are no problem in archives. They neither cause trouble in a museum nor in movies which are shown in the television or the cinema. Why sould we give the freedom of art out of our hands to not show it in videogames. If one argues that videogames are no cultural good or art(, as they are!), how can you explain me why it is no problem for movies in television or in the cinema where it becomes clear that they are no documentaries, but also entertainment?

So even for a mod with the setting of the second world war featuring nazi germany it wouln't be a problem. And 0 A.D. doesn't even belong into this category. So it shouldn't be a problem.

Just out of curiosity: Did someone edit my last post?

edit: Sorry, I really didn't want it to become so long!

Edited December 10, 2012 by Almin

[zoot]

It also still remains the fact that 0 A.D. is obviously art and culture and therefore freed from this censorship (because of § 86(3) through § 86a(3)).

sources that show that the Kulturrat(Cultural High Council) accepted videogames as cultural goods:

The Association of german Game Developers ("GAME") is part of it. Look for "GAME - Bundesverband deutscher Computerspielentwickler" on the website of the council:

http://www.kulturrat...il=171&rubrik=1

An additional article from quite a well-known german newspaper:

http://www.spiegel.d...r-a-572152.html

Is the Kulturrat a government organization? Or a trade assocation, i.e. a special interest group?

[FeXoR]

"Im Deutschen Kulturrat haben sich die Verbände der Künstler, der Kultureinrichtungen, der Kulturvereine und der Kulturwirtschaft aller künstlerischen Sparten zusammengeschlossen."

Translation: "In the "Kulturrat" artist organizations, cultural facilities, cultural clubs/societies and members of the cultural industry are gathered."

The "Kulturrat" has an advisory function to the government. As far as I can tell it's quite neutral in the sense of "not dominated by one faction" e.g. the industry side.

However, they have no authority to legislate or judge directly in any sense.

Edited December 10, 2012 by FeXoR

[Almin]

Is the Kulturrat a government organization? Or a trade assocation, i.e. a special interest group?

Ah, that's a good question I didn't think about. From the wikipedia article it seems as if it's indeed a special interest group like an association and not a government organization as I thought on first glance.

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kulturrat

In this case I have to admit that I can't argue with it.

edit: Someone was faster

edit2: And yes it also seems as a neutral organization to me, apart from standing for the right of all artists.

Edited December 10, 2012 by Almin

[Mythos_Ruler]

Indeed, movies presented in Germany show Nazi symbolism all the time: Downfall (2004). Given everything I've seen and read and all the answers on this thread, I can't see how a Hindu good luck symbol will hurt the game in the slightest.

[historic_bruno]

Ok, once more on the swastika: AFAIK (and I'm involved in the anti-fascist scene in Germany, I'm in contact with antifa activists etc, I've been studying history at the university - so I'm rather good informed, I think)

Nothing personal, but we don't need someone's personal agenda pushed on 0 A.D. Leave the German antifascist scene in Germany where it belongs, please.

[leper]

I think we understand § 86 (3) differently. I agree that we do mass distribution, but that's not important as long as our goal is not to distribute the material with a meaning or background of the nazi regime. That is what I think is meant with: "für die Zwecke einer der in den Nummern 1 und 2 bezeichneten Parteien oder Vereinigungen".

Not to be nitpicking, but that passage is from § 86 (1) which does not apply to § 86a, which only references § 86 (3) and (4).

Even the Bundesprüfstelle is of the opinion that swatiskas in videogames shouldn't be seen as illegal:

http://www.bundespru...de,rwb=true.pdf

That was an interesting read, thanks. Even though that only references movies/games set in WW 2, I think it also applies to us.

I think the best solution would be to make the modification suggested by Josh earlier in this topic and be done with it.

[Jeru]

I sent out a tweet asking for legal help.

[idanwin]

We should certainly do our best to avoid legal issues, but I also believe that we should not censor ourselves unnecessarily. Censorship is dangerous and it's something I want to fight against. One of the secondary purposes of this game is to be historically correct and to accurately (but with some artistic freedom) represent ancient cultures. The Mauryans are a culture of which only few people have heard, and it may come as a shock to some of the less educated amongst them that the Mauryan symbol of luck is similar to the swastika. But I believe that's a good thing, at least they learn something. That's my opinion, but this isn't my game, so I'll just leave it at that.

[AllenY]

We could try to lessen the impact of swastika by making it as far removed from the Nazi version as possible: https://www.dropbox.com/s/p669zkm7q7acrmf/Hindu%20Swastika.bmp

The bare-breasted women, could someone post a pic of them to see how obvious it is? After all, if it's the kind of thing you wouldn;t see unless you look for it, it shouldn;t matter.

[longtomjr]

I will ask my dad when he comes home. He is german. I am under 16. I will be offended with th swastika that looks like a Nazi symbol. I am half german and although I dont live in germany it is a very sensitive thing for my family on my fathers side. Have a look at this sastika http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ShaveyZion1.jpg This doent look Nazi at all and I think it should be best to use this. I want this game avaidable to everyone and I dont want anyone bieng offended. This is a very sensitive deep cut in German History that I dont think we must hurt at all if you understand what I mean.

Uncovered Breasts: I think this is unnesecary and will alert perants of my friends that play this game and it will not annyone if we ommit it. It may accutualy be offending to woman if we do not cover it. Try to keep it real without making scars. I am shure there were coverd breast woman fighting to. On the other side it may be Sedductive to Men playing this game and I dont think it is needed in a RTS game...

Just my thoughts

LTJR

[Lion.Kanzen]

I will ask my dad when he comes home. He is german. I am under 16. I will be offended with th swastika that looks like a Nazi symbol. I am half german and although I dont live in germany it is a very sensitive thing for my family on my fathers side. Have a look at this sastika http://en.wikipedia....ShaveyZion1.jpg This doent look Nazi at all and I think it should be best to use this. I want this game avaidable to everyone and I dont want anyone bieng offended. This is a very sensitive deep cut in German History that I dont think we must hurt at all if you understand what I mean.

Uncovered Breasts: I think this is unnesecary and will alert perants of my friends that play this game and it will not annyone if we ommit it. It may accutualy be offending to woman if we do not cover it. Try to keep it real without making scars. I am shure there were coverd breast woman fighting to. On the other side it may be Sedductive to Men playing this game and I dont think it is needed in a RTS game...

Just my thoughts

LTJR

thank you that get peace to my conscience, because that was my idea, for get some Realism and Artistic licensing.

[longtomjr]

thank you that get peace to my conscience, because that was my idea, for get some Realism and Artistic licensing.

Are you sarcastic... if not I dont Understand what you mean... By the way... where is the music forum

[majapahit]

Svastika is ancient, they who banned it just because somebody used it for bad intensions are selfish.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Are you sarcastic... if not I dont Understand what you mean... By the way... where is the music forum

check Mauryan Shields topic please

i was say is Thank you for Defend my Position about this topic because, was my idea put a Hindu Symbol in all that Shields. Enrique put Textures in Game.

Edited December 21, 2012 by Lion.Kanzen