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This thread was nice and dead I thought we had decided to give the women scant clothing and that the Indian swastikas were okay. I feel like there hasn't been any issues since Magadha when they were i

I guess those symbols are only forbidden in germany when they are used in a specific context

Lion.Kanzen: Sorry, I didn't see your request. A link to the official law in question (German): http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__86.html There is no official translation (or I couldn't find it

I have to disagree, my 12 year old brother thinks it's the best game he has ever played.

I think your brother knows about the game because you told him about it though... I'm not saying that age group won't enjoy the game, I'm saying that the majority of the people who know about the game are not in that age group.

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Gen. Kemobi, sorry but I must take issue with your opinion.

I think there should be a non-controversial default.

We don't want to risk becoming famous as the "free strategy game with topless women", losing distribution venues such as magazines etc.

Historical purists and exposed breast aficionados should develop and use 3rd-party mods if they care so much about it.

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We don't want to risk becoming famous as the "free strategy game with topless women", losing distribution venues such as magazines etc.

Not to belabor the point, but you also risk losing distribution venues over including swastikas. Perhaps not as many as over topless women, but as an Israeli, you'll agree that there are a lot of irrational feelings over that symbol. Saying "there is no issue" / "these are not the droids you are looking for" is a bit too easy, IMO.

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First, I'm not Kemobi. It's Kenobi :P

Seccond, there are plenty of games that pictured bare-breasted woman, and they werent pictured as the "adventure game with topless women". I can start naming of a few to you: God of War, Mass Effect (with even sex scenes), Heavy Rain, Godfather 2, and I can keep the list going down if you wish.

It's a matter of if we're going to get reconized by doing an excelent game or if we're going to let minor stuff like that be the main "seller".

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It is a matter of taste and priorities, eventually this can only be resolved one way or another, such as by the project lead's decision, by committee or by team vote.

First, I'm not Kemobi. It's Kenobi :P

Sorry, I was typing on the smartphone

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It is a matter of taste and priorities, eventually this can only be resolved one way or another, such as by the project lead's decision, by committee or by team vote.

Agreed.

Not to belabor the point, but you also risk losing distribution venues over including swastikas. Perhaps not as many as over topless women, but as an Israeli, you'll agree that there are a lot of irrational feelings over that symbol. Saying "there is no issue" / "these are not the droids you are looking for" is a bit too easy, IMO.

Wolfenstein 3D is based during the second world war and features Nazis. These are not the droids you are looking for.

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Wolfenstein 3D is based during the second world war and features Nazis. These are not the droids you are looking for.

So FeXoR, who I believe lives in Germany, is lying when he says there is an issue?

I don't really mind how the decision is made but it seems silly to do it on an uninformed basis.

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perhaps you guys should open up a swastika/nude thread. Not sure they quite fit in here xp

That's a great job on the UVs Enrique, Though I'm not sure about the amount of stone you put into the balcony and roof, though it does provide necessary contrast, it seems a tad unstable and historically wonky.

I've also found out that stretched textures in SU export as different files, so there isn't much I can do in that respect. I'll do my best to clean up the models and leave them in their respective threads in .obj and .dae once they're largely accepted by the community.

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This shouldn't desensitize the Nazi svastika, but taking it out would reinforce the idea that all svastikas are bad, which isn't what we want. This is clearly an Indian symbol. Historically accurate game almost two thousand years before the rise of the Nazi party, and its negative connotation. Anyone saying otherwise is just looking for an argument.

Im sure Germany is pretty anal about violent video games, but banning a game for its historical accuracy would just be silly.

Also, boobies

three, four polygons apiece? Nothing worth banning, really. Any kid who doesnt already know what a bare chested woman looks like won't recognize. The unit models are quite small.

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So FeXoR, who I believe lives in Germany, is lying when he says there is an issue?

I don't really mind how the decision is made but it seems silly to do it on an uninformed basis.

Germany bans depictions of Nazi symbols in video games, but not the Hindu swastika. I believe there was a court ruling in Germany on this matter.
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This thread is meant for discussing the following controversial questions, both pertaining the visual portrayal of the Mauryan civ in 0 A.D.:

  • Will we use Hindu swastikas in 0 A.D.?
  • Will we portray Mauryan women with exposed breasts or with covered breasts?
  • How will we decide on these topics?

I will be moving posts pertaining these question from another thread to this thread.

These are very emotionally charged topics and opinions differ strongly. Still, let's do our best to keep this discussion civil, as it has been so far.

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This is a delicate topic because every people has its own way of thinking, therefore its own way to deal with these matters.

About the swastika, i wasn't directly affected by the völkisch ideology, i know the impact it has on some people and i'm sorry for that, i know it may evoke some bad memories or shame or whatever uncomfortable feeling it may bring, but (again, with all due respect) i really don't think we should let that recent black chapter of our history pervert what the not-tilted symbol really means: peace. Maybe, we could add the option to simply not use the textures with the symbol on it, but to ignore its existence... I don't think it would be a cool thing to do.

And about the bare breasted women, i think it is a silly thing to discuss. We are talking about showing low quality parts of a human body. It's not even implying sexuality, it's only how the women dressed (or not!) themselves. If you guys are worried if it will raise the age rating of the game, i think the violence itself will raise it to 14-16 yrs, and moderate nudity is allowed around that rating. If you're worried about the little children that will play the game ignoring the rating, i say that's their parents' problems, not ours and i don't think we'd lose adult public with that, that'd be very silly, IMHO.

Edited by Pedro Falcão
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i think that historical facts like mauryan swastika and naked women warriors should be in game.

But, to not offend some people, an option to disable them could be a good thing (i hope that after that, some vegan don't rise up to remove animals kills and such)

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I personally think it's a matter of what we/the game is trying to do, are we trying to be all kinds of things or are we trying to create a game? And more specifically, what should be the focus of the game? Should it be gameplay/fun or should it be historical accurateness or being able to show everything (both literally and figuratively :P ), or what? In other words, is showing swastikas/nakedness important enough to risk turning people away from the game?

I'm not saying I necessarily think this means that we can't have these specific things in the game, but I am saying that I think we should evaluate whether showing some specific symbol or nudity is important enough. I mean it's one thing that there is violence in the game, it's a game of warfare (and economy of course), but it's not primarily a showcase of ancient symbols, or clothing (or the human body for that matter), in which case including these things would have been an easy choice.

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mhm, I'm also german. I don't think that most players will have a problem with the swastika, but imho it would be a good choice to have it disabled by default(just to become sure). Additionally a possibility to turn it on in the settings menu would be great for those who don't care about it and that's it.

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To German law, there is no difference between a Swastica and the "Hakenkreuz" Nazi symbol, there are also some derived and ancient German symbols banned due to use in Nazi propaganda til the very day, it's similar in Austria as fas as I know.

There are two exception to this: In satire and political/historical depiction for educational purposes. Though the game has some kind of historical context, it's clearly entertainment, so the game would be illegal in Germany and players could be prosecuted for Nazi propaganda, if it's in the game, whether it can be toggled or not.

Of course it would be hard to actually prosecute players, but I've seen a German fansite around and this would probably be shut down and the guys in charge and other contributors could of course be accused of spreading Nazi propaganda.

So the question is: Are you willing to make the game illegal to play, distribute or review in Germany and Austria (maybe Israel, too?), just for the sake of showing Swasticas?

Edited by desmotes
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To German law, there is no difference between a Swastica and the "Hakenkreuz" Nazi symbol, there are also some derived and ancient German symbols banned due to use in Nazi propaganda til the very day, it's similar in Austria as fas as I know.

There are two exception to this: In satire and political/historical depiction for educational purposes. Though the game has some kind of historical context, it's clearly entertainment, so the game would be illegal in Germany...

Could someone clarify this?

The wikipedia article on Strafgesetzbuch section 86a says this:

Note that the prohibition isn't tied to the symbol itself but to its use in a context suggestive of association with outlawed organizations. Thus, the Swastika is outlawed if used in a context of völkisch ideology, while it is legitimate if used as a symbol of Hinduism or Buddhism. Similarly, the Wolfsangel is outlawed if used in the context of the Junge Front but not in other contexts such as heraldry, or as the emblem of "landscape poet" Hermann Löns...

I'm not suggesting the above article is the answer we're looking for, but it would be useful to find out the facts about Germany's criminal code before commenting further on the subject.

And just to be clear, I don't really have a preference for whether the symbol appears on a Mauryan texture or not.

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I just checked the §86 StGB and §86a StGB (for Germany) again and there is a part about it, that might be misunderstandable;

It does say: The symbols used in the context of the Nazi ideology are banned, no matter the context they are actually used in, not symbols used in the Nazi context - the author of english wikipedia might have mistaken that.

So a Swastica is always banned, not only in Nazi context.

This refers to all symbols actually used, rotated, mirrored or in other way similar to them of banned parties, organisations and their successors.

Especially 86a is important here, I'll stick with German law for this:

§ 86a Verwenden von Kennzeichen verfassungswidriger Organisationen

(1) Mit Freiheitsstrafe bis zu drei Jahren oder mit Geldstrafe wird bestraft, wer 1.

im Inland Kennzeichen einer der in § 86 Abs. 1 Nr. 1, 2 und 4 bezeichneten Parteien oder Vereinigungen verbreitet oder öffentlich, in einer Versammlung oder in von ihm verbreiteten Schriften (§ 11 Abs. 3) verwendet oder 2.

Gegenstände, die derartige Kennzeichen darstellen oder enthalten, zur Verbreitung oder Verwendung im Inland oder Ausland in der in Nummer 1 bezeichneten Art und Weise herstellt, vorrätig hält, einführt oder ausführt.

(2) Kennzeichen im Sinne des Absatzes 1 sind namentlich Fahnen, Abzeichen, Uniformstücke, Parolen und Grußformen. Den in Satz 1 genannten Kennzeichen stehen solche gleich, die ihnen zum Verwechseln ähnlich sind.

(3) § 86 Abs. 3 und 4 gilt entsprechend.

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