What do you think 0 A.D. lacks?

[Classic-Burger]

@wowgetoffyourcellphoneN Within gameplay, we need a conceptual game department that decides to improve gameplay, not just balance.

People who contribute ideas and people dedicated to programming improvements, gameplay improvements and that the way to get new features.

Many ideas never progress beyond a  sheet of paper with ideas.

[Genava55]

What is the point of formations? Or more precisely, what are the motivations behind this wish?

It seems to me that the motivations are mostly cosmetic. To give a total war vibe.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

@Classic-Burger I can explain why a sheet with a bunch of ideas doesn’t translate to an equivalent bunch of gameplay changes/features.

gameplay changes should fit into the scope and style of 0ad, be compatible with existing features, not introduce unnecessary complication, while enriching gameplay.

For example, users may suggest realism features, like capturing wild horses to give the player a 1-time discount on a cavalryman. However, that would conflict with other features, like siege speed, hero HP, as 0ad is not an exhaustive simulation.

if every idea we came across was implemented as is, 0ad would be quite a mess, wouldn’t it?

One other thing is that these changes require people’s work to get them over the finish line. So arguments for a new feature should either convince a dev to take up the task, or the arguer should try it themselves. And that means you may need to modify or walk back the original idea to get more people in agreement.

 

[Deicide4u]

3 hours ago, Genava55 said:

What is the point of formations? Or more precisely, what are the motivations behind this wish?

 

I'm not the one who proposed adding battalions*, but the benefits from my point of view are:

- streamlining formations, allowing us to tie formations to battalions,
- implementation of battalion-specific bonuses for units that can form a battalion,
- de-coupling gatherers from front-line units. In the long run, this will enable us to do all kinds of "battalion-specific" combat roles, allowing players to choose between stronger army or stronger economy. The units that are gathering resources obviously won't belong to any battalion, and they will, for example, need to drop-off resources in order to form battalions. Furthermore, individual units will be weaker than units in a battalion,
- more opportunities for strategic positioning, decisions on when to attack and with what, etc.
- implementation of a "shared experience pool" between units in a battalion. All units in a battalion will share the combat experience, and when an unit from a battalion dies, its experience is shared between the surviving soldiers.

Cons would be the massive changes to the game's meta, and the cost of implementing all this.

Edited yesterday at 12:26 by Deicide4u
added the experience pool mechanic

[Perzival12]

11 minutes ago, Deicide4u said:

- streamlining formations, allowing us to tie formations to battalions,

As I said before, formations should just be turned into battalions, with a bit of Warzone 2100 unit grouping added.

[Deicide4u]

You already have that option, and it's on by default when you install the game. 

[Outis]

7 hours ago, Genava55 said:

It seems to me that the motivations are mostly cosmetic. To give a total war vibe.

Battalions can be useful if it helps to create features such as directional attack bonuses and formation bonuses.

[Classic-Burger]

On 02/12/2025 at 3:43 PM, real_tabasco_sauce said:

gameplay changes should fit into the scope and style of 0ad

Being a clone of another game seems to be the case, I suppose.

Show me a recent design document.

 

On 02/12/2025 at 3:43 PM, real_tabasco_sauce said:

For example, users may suggest realism features, like capturing wild horses to give the player a 1-time discount on a cavalryman. However, that would conflict with other features, like siege speed, hero HP, as 0ad is not an exhaustive simulation.

Nobody said an exhaustive simulation.

This is not very exhaustive.(In theory)

The only thing I disagree with about WoW is that the formation or battalion shouldn't be fixed.

The only advantage this has is that the performance could be better.

I'm not asking for flanks and other things.

I'm saying that the battalion should function differently in combat.

On 02/12/2025 at 3:43 PM, real_tabasco_sauce said:

if every idea we came across was implemented as is, 0ad would be quite a mess, wouldn’t it?

Correct, thank you, that's my point. Bravo.

That's why there needs to be a department with a leader.

On 02/12/2025 at 3:43 PM, real_tabasco_sauce said:

feature should either convince a dev to take up the task, or the arguer should try it themselves. And that means you may need to modify or walk back the original idea to get more people in agreement.

You read what I wrote, tell me what you didn't. Read it again.

On 02/12/2025 at 2:58 AM, Classic-Burger said:

People who contribute ideas and people dedicated to programming improvements

I'm not saying that the ideas will be taken.

I'm saying that it will be discussed (as it already is).

And it gets filtered. And if something needs improvement, it gets done.

But there must be transparency, a public document outlining what needs to be done or where the desired path is to be taken.

---Let's start again.---

 

Is 0 AD an open-source clone of the Age of Empires series with fewer features? Or does it aspire to be more? I mean, to innovate.

Yes or no?

I didn't say it has to be a full Total War game.

But the formation should be useful and somewhat more immersive.

For now, the battalions are useless and just an aesthetic banner.

But not total war.

I'm talking about the formations.

I wasn't the one who started the conversation about the battalions.

Wowgetyou..etc is right.

Battalions could give it something unique, as I said before, not many RTS games work that way.

The other idea is the idea of progress; that no longer has to do with innovation but with reinforcing the gameplay.

 

The CS are very OP for the economic experience( the snowball effect), but I don't want to remove them. Something has to be done. 

From there, all that's needed are more game modes.

Do you think these are very radical ideas? @real_tabasco_sauce

Furthermore, I'm not the only one with these ideas.

The change should be gradual and progressive, not a radical change.

By sheet I mean a route to follow. Simple.

 

What I want is for them not to get disorganized.

 

(I left videos above) and if they get disordered, they gradually return to their original position.

 

Another difference would be: if I take two battalions together, they shouldn't mix. That's different from formations.In formations, if I select 2 groups, they become a single group when I move them.

 

For now, I have two ideas. The first one will require a lot of programming.

For now, that's nothing complex in terms of realism.

Note that I am not asking for flanking festures and other things.

And no, I don't want units with moral system.

Friendly fire maybe...

 

I'll repeat it again in case it wasn't clear.

I don't want them to be trained already made, like wow said.

I don't want the entire battalion to be trained all at once.See video above.

I want them to be trained based on the current formation. "Rise cohort".

What would happen if that were the case? Some things would change; the life bar would go from being individual to group, therefore there would also be a defense bonus.

I haven't yet investigated how it works this way, apart from what I said above.

Group life bar.

However, I don't like how the battle plays out in Praetorians.

Watch the video above and notice that it gets messed up and they don't maintain the line.

https://youtube.com/shorts/-CKWsq2RMyo?si=bVSRa-gY_JOPWoRz

 

 

"Same problem" as in 0 A.D.

[Deicide4u]

@Classic-Burger

Please don't spam 4 posts in a row, there is an Edit button. 

Also, back when forums were the golden grail of internet discussions, that was called post-farming.

Another thing, you should calmly collect your thoughts before posting anything.

For example, you are constantly calling 0 A.D. a clone of Age of Empires. While that may be true in general part, it's a fact that this game has some unique features not present in Age of Empires. Features like Citizen Soldiers and capturing, Even the lack of a feature can be feature. For example, the lack of clear unit upgrade paths.

Once again, as an author of this thread, don't spam post. It looks really bad and it makes me scroll more. 

[Stan`]

Merged the posts.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 02/12/2025 at 9:21 AM, Genava55 said:

What is the point of formations? Or more precisely, what are the motivations behind this wish?

It seems to me that the motivations are mostly cosmetic. To give a total war vibe.

Okay, so what is the Total War vibe, then? Why does Total War use battalions? Why not just have hundreds or thousands of little dudes running around individually? It's because battalions give the opportunity for greater control for the player, including directional attacks, flanking, charging bonuses, fatigue*, morale*, formation bonuses (and weaknesses)... all of the things that make ancient warfare interesting.

You can have the benefit of 1000 soldiers vs. 1000 soldiers battles, but with easier player control and combat dynamics. You'd have a couple dozen entities (battalions) to manage in that example instead of 1000. For all those people who desperately want an 'ammo' feature*, battalions make it easier to do. 

And it would be less like Total War and more like Battle for Middle Earth 2:

 

*Fatigue, Morale, Ammo aren't 100% necessary, just easier to implement and manage if desired. 

 

 

[Perzival12]

Okay. Battalions seem like they could be a good idea, as long as they are OPTIONAL. Replacing individual unit training with battalions is not a good idea, but being able to turn a formation into a battalion (or a group of units into a battalion) seems like it would grant a lot of new features, while being unique.

[Genava55]

3 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Okay, so what is the Total War vibe, then? Why does Total War use battalions? Why not just have hundreds or thousands of little dudes running around individually? It's because battalions give the opportunity for greater control for the player, including directional attacks, flanking, charging bonuses, fatigue*, morale*, formation bonuses (and weaknesses)... all of the things that make ancient warfare interesting.

That's exactly my point. Total War has its own features, its own mechanics. Code-wise, it is very different from Age of Empires and other RTS.

You are giving the example of BFME2, which is both very different from Total War and very different from 0 A.D. in its mechanics. 

Implementing charging bonus, morale, fatigue, ammo etc. do not require battle formations. It is actually the battle formations which require new features to make sense. All the mechanics in battle should make sense with the formations. It requires a holistic approach.

The challenge is to produce a well rounded design and balanced mechanics based on battle formations. While keeping the other features and design of 0 A.D., notably on the economy. 

And also making all that with the current engine, notably the pathfinding.

This is a major overhaul. Total War and BFME2 were designed with this idea from the start, don't underestimate the ramifications.

It would be great but I don't see how it is feasible with the current ressources and management.

[Deicide4u]

Maybe it's better to focus on smaller changes first. Like implementing a "special attack" mechanic by giving some units either passive or active special abilities. 

These are even described on some documentation pages, but they're still not implemented.

Perhaps the most famous is the ability of Hastati to throw pila at nearby enemies, before going into melee. 

Edited 56 minutes ago by Deicide4u

[Genava55]

36 minutes ago, Deicide4u said:

Maybe it's better to focus on smaller changes first. Like implementing a "special attack" mechanic by giving some units either passive or active special abilities. 

These are even described on some documentation pages, but they're still not implemented.

Perhaps the most famous is the ability of Hastati to throw pila at nearby enemies, before going into melee. 

Special abilities are indeed something lacking. Regardless of the direction the game takes in its design, having special abilities would be an asset in any case. And it's something that's realistic to implement.

[Normanpsync]

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