Fanatics Are Broken Beyond Repair — The Real Spam Nightmare After Champ Cavs

[Deicide4u]

8 basic spearmen and 12 javelineers destroyed seven fanatics, with all javelineers and 3 spearmen remaining. It took 5 minutes to setup the demo.

[chrstgtr]

1 hour ago, Deicide4u said:

8 basic spearmen and 12 javelineers destroyed seven fanatics, with all javelineers and 3 spearmen remaining. It took 5 minutes to setup the demo.

To underline, the the CS, which cost 2000 in res, defeated the fana, which cost 1540 in res. The fana also cost more food, the slowest resource to gather, than the CS, so the 1540 vs 2000 res comparison understates how CS were fairly close in price and the below example shows it even more because that example has fana as more expensive. Moreover, the fana player had to build multiple temples, which cost adds extra cost and time, while the CS army was built those 20 units several minutes before the fana player even went p2. 

Consider that the CS player could easily push the fana player before this or get upgrades with those extra res cost and it is hard to imagine how anyone thinks fana are OP unless you let the fana player spam them or try to fight them with cav

Edited 15 hours ago by chrstgtr

[chrstgtr]

1 hour ago, guerringuerrin said:

If the purpose of the units is to counter cav, then why don't just nerf a little their damage against infantry?

I honestly think they're a little weak against inf. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing, though, because they should be an anti-cav unit, so they don't need to do well against inf. 

But fana aren't actually that good against cav right now either. The problem is that they're slower than cav so the enemy player can just run away.  I've been most effective using fana when the enemy cav player misjudged how strong fana are against cav and took bad fights and prety ineffective with fana when trying to use them against inf or a cav player that just retreats. I think they need a slight speed buff. 

[Servo]

Isn’t it dumb to compare/equate 7 fanatics vs 8 spearmen and 12 promoted javelins?

[Deicide4u]

7 Fanatics not good enough for you?

How about 10 Fanatics versus the same force? I didn't even micro the spearmen.

Edited 16 hours ago by Deicide4u

[chrstgtr]

26 minutes ago, Servo said:

Isn’t it dumb to compare/equate 7 fanatics vs 8 spearmen and 12 promoted javelins?

The fana player is going to be at a pop/resource deficit whenever they fight because fana are more expensive for a lot of reasons. A more realistic comparison might be where fana are outnumber by a 22:10 since that is the difference in their straight resource costs but, as you can see, they fana lose fights that are easier than that. The CS player also has the option to push earlier when the fana player will their weakest. 
 

it all goes to my original point that fana’s strength is very situational 

if you think t

it should be a 1:1 comparison, that doesn’t make sense. Obviously the unit that requires its own specialized building and costs 2.2x as much should win in a 1:1 fight. 

[Servo]

Dakara illustration is better than yours @Deicide4u. Somehow you can’t make sense because you don’t play multiplayer.

Regardless of any illustration here you can’t compare the devastating effect of fanatics in game on TG. It’s a game changer. From starting at P2 up to the end where you can spam up to 25 fully upgraded (from blacksmith) infinitely, how can you stop it? I’ve seen it. Cavalry being microed as well as infantry they just dropped and when they killed all fanatics another more than 20 sets comes in again and again. 
as I’ve said they might get countered in 1v1 but in team game it’s going to be pain. 

[Deicide4u]

7 minutes ago, Servo said:

Dakara illustration is better than yours @Deicide4u. Somehow you can’t make sense because you don’t play multiplayer.

Yeah, I regularly use mass archers in my games without support. I also conveniently position them so that each Fanatic can reach them just fine. Oh, and I'm not even microing my units, because why would I? After all, I am not playing multiplayer, so I can't grasp such tactics. 

/s just in case, and I won't feed the troll anymore. I rested my case. 

[chrstgtr]

19 minutes ago, Servo said:

Dakara illustration is bette

The key to beating fana is to not get into a bad fight. 

Dakara straight up said he didn’t have enough melee. 

No one is saying that fana are an awful unit. It’s the opposite where reza is saying that fana are always the best unit, which just isn’t true. 

[king reza the great]

3 hours ago, Deicide4u said:

8 basic spearmen and 12 javelineers destroyed seven fanatics, with all javelineers and 3 spearmen remaining. It took 5 minutes to setup the demo.

This is not how u balance units. Are you a dev?

Its simple, fanas run fast, they run. They are not going to attack cs like what u tested. They target women on field for example. Or a small group of men which are mining etc. That totally will destroy enemy eco. Then at a critical moment the fana player send all soldiors and kill his opponent. And both are still in p2.

Other problem is that u cant counter fanas with cavs. And its very hard to micro with cavs vs fanas because they run fast. As chris himself in his first post said, a group of fanas easily can kill lot of cavs! Which show how broken they are.

Moreover why only gaul should have a super op anti cav unit? Because its favorite civ of chris he bonused it? Fanas already required metal in last alphas. Why they dont require it now?

[Deicide4u]

20 minutes ago, king reza the great said:

Other problem is that u cant counter fanas with cavs

Of course you can't.

20 minutes ago, king reza the great said:

Moreover why only gaul should have a super op anti cav unit?

Going for a cavalry rush is almost always wrong, especially if you don't have enough APM or micro skill to use them. I sense that is your problem. Once the Fanatics arrive, you don't have enough infantry to stop them. 

[Servo]

Deleting

Edited 8 hours ago by Servo

[Servo]

deleting

Edited 8 hours ago by Servo

[real_tabasco_sauce]

With fanas, I would say we are looking at a very strong unit, but not really "broken OP". "OP" gets thrown around a lot, but you have to remember that gauls are still pretty much the best eco civ. If you moved them over to carth for example, the balance would be very different. Lastly, I would say that since they are a specialty of the gauls, I think they deserve to be pretty strong. I'd sooner nerf the champ cav play for gauls than fanas.

[Dakara]

14 hours ago, Deicide4u said:

You don't have enough melee. You also didn't snipe with those ranged units. Otherwise, it's an easy win for CS.

did you see the fanatic are not micro too? plus the distance unit are in circle 

[Dakara]

12 hours ago, Deicide4u said:

7 Fanatics not good enough for you?

How about 10 Fanatics versus the same force? I didn't even micro the spearmen.

you picked mercenary XD plus how you do with a civ of archer? i'm agree fanatic OP on situation, not all time . 

If you build wall, have a civ with good civ, didnt start spam cav in 4vs4, etc, etc etc etc

 

plus we don't know why gauls has a extra tech of food. You know this kind of bonus don't make civilizations unique, it just makes them unbalanced.

Edited 3 hours ago by Dakara

[Dakara]

34 minutes ago, Dakara said:

you picked mercenary XD plus how you do with a civ of archer? i'm agree fanatic OP on situation, not all time . 

If you build wall, have a civ with good civ, didnt start spam cav in 4vs4, etc, etc etc etc

 

plus we don't know why gauls has a extra tech of food. You know this kind of bonus don't make civilizations unique, it just makes them unbalanced.

then how you go attack his base for stop the fanatic spam? you send 30 spearmen CS acrros the map??

[Deicide4u]

23 minutes ago, Dakara said:

then how you go attack his base for stop the fanatic spam?

We can argue about minor details for days, but until you show me some replays, I'm not going to reply to questions that have obvious answers.

[Arup]

@Dakara you can stop arguing with a guy who has never played a lobby tg lmao.

and it's not fanas that are op, it's THE CIV. THE GODdarn CIV ITSELF IS OP. THEY GOT THE BEST CHAMP CAV, BEST ECO, BEST HERO, MOST ECONOMIC CHAMP, SLINGERS! ONLY WAY TO SAY THEY'RE WORSE IS THAT THEY DON'T HAVE BOLTS OR CATAS

[TheCJ]

Well, fanatics do lose against sufficient infantry. But that doesnt mean its not a very strong tactic. For one, as reza mentioned, the rushing player will often head for the food economy first, as women cant defend themselves very well. And for that use case, having more power in fewer units is very strong, as a larger force gets noticed sooner and suffers more from blocking each other/pathing issues.

Also, while it is definitely defendable when you pull together some troops, you have to consider two problems:

1. When the fanatic rusher has massed about ~20 fanatics, they can take on any soldiers you put on any extra metal/stone or a small woodline. And given their speed, you cant really get your main force, thats working somewhere else, to help in time.

2. There are major economic implications in fighting with all your cs. Of course, he invested a lot of resources to make the fanatics aswell, but if you are chasing 20 fanatics with 40 cs and fight them for like, 30s, you already lost 40•30•0.75=900 wood just by not using them to gather.

 

That being said, fanatic rushes are not as easy to pull off as reza implies. They are quite costly and its not as easy to micro as cav (since they are still slower). Its a strategy that needs a lot of investment and skill and has potentially massive reward. Such strategies are very good for a video game and the fanatics shouldnt be touched at all imho.

[Dakara]

18 minutes ago, TheCJ said:

Well, fanatics do lose against sufficient infantry. But that doesnt mean its not a very strong tactic. For one, as reza mentioned, the rushing player will often head for the food economy first, as women cant defend themselves very well. And for that use case, having more power in fewer units is very strong, as a larger force gets noticed sooner and suffers more from blocking each other/pathing issues.

Also, while it is definitely defendable when you pull together some troops, you have to consider two problems:

1. When the fanatic rusher has massed about ~20 fanatics, they can take on any soldiers you put on any extra metal/stone or a small woodline. And given their speed, you cant really get your main force, thats working somewhere else, to help in time.

2. There are major economic implications in fighting with all your cs. Of course, he invested a lot of resources to make the fanatics aswell, but if you are chasing 20 fanatics with 40 cs and fight them for like, 30s, you already lost 40•30•0.75=900 wood just by not using them to gather.

 

That being said, fanatic rushes are not as easy to pull off as reza implies. They are quite costly and its not as easy to micro as cav (since they are still slower). Its a strategy that needs a lot of investment and skill and has potentially massive reward. Such strategies are very good for a video game and the fanatics shouldnt be touched at all imho.

Ok lets play corral with sword infantery for pick the goat  for wood we can palisade the entire forest

[king reza the great]

2 hours ago, Dakara said:

you picked mercenary XD plus how you do with a civ of archer? i'm agree fanatic OP on situation, not all time . 

If you build wall, have a civ with good civ, didnt start spam cav in 4vs4, etc, etc etc etc

 

plus we don't know why gauls has a extra tech of food. You know this kind of bonus don't make civilizations unique, it just makes them unbalanced.

Yes exatly. My point is that there are group of ecobot celt players who bonus celt for their wishes.

[Servo]

I’m not a pro but what Aslan did using fanatics can be done by any decent player. Gauls in the pocket and no one disrupt him (there was an attempt but foiled by fanatics), he just simply use fanatics and imo with less micro. He’s just attacking suicidal and imo he doesn’t care if they die because he can simply easily produce them “non-stop” with only food and wood which he has abundantly.
Metal were just for upgrade and a couple of stone for temples (8). Before researching P3 ahead of anybody all cavalry rushers are already neutralized. 
Now pumping minimum of 24 fanas fully P2 upgraded and CS and women were just gathering, his teammates can just relax and building up forces for continuous assault.
Fanatics are not fighting main frontal forces they simply disrupt your game and without metal requirements imo they are OP (mostly on TG).

Meanwhile opponents are still trying to upgrade their units.

He never use cavalry except his starting one. 
The game I spectated was 7/26, players were Mcaurell, Atric-lll, wolf, storm on T1. Aslan, Havran, potato and Docorgans on T2.

I just don’t know how to upload it, trying but failed. Please moderator delete my empty posts above.