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Overhaul of the Citizen system


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On 29/03/2025 at 12:08 AM, Grautvornix said:

In DelendaEst there is the additional concept of slaves (with a limited lifetime due to the hard life they are forced to endure). Could that be the additional working unit you are looking for?

Implementing a feature based on slavery could make a lot of differences. Firstly, it would be much more realistic and historical. Secondly, it would bring more differences between civilisations because they didn't practice slavery in the same way. Thirdly, slaves could be much more efficient at harvesting resources. The citizen soldier would therefore be more versatile and more defensive.

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17 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Implementing a feature based on slavery could make a lot of differences. Firstly, it would be much more realistic and historical. Secondly, it would bring more differences between civilisations because they didn't practice slavery in the same way. Thirdly, slaves could be much more efficient at harvesting resources. The citizen soldier would therefore be more versatile and more defensive.

we are working on that in historical too.  Maybe share on server how some of the civs practice it differently?

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2 hours ago, Deicide4u said:

I'm forced to train soldiers, even though I don't need to. Soldiers cost both wood and food, but I need wood for stuff at the start.

I am not sure you are? It is possible to make nothing but women and champs. If you work out a good build order for that, it might even be quite strong, since you only really need 40 champs to win against a full cs army (130 units).

2 hours ago, Deicide4u said:

They are not treated as such. Often, they are your only army, even in the late game.

There is not much more the game can do to make them feel that way, though. I mean, if you choose to use them as your only army, you can (and many do, I agree with you on that), but its not a very good idea, since they are a lot weaker than champs. I mean, I can choose to only make villagers in AoE and use them as my army, the game doesnt "prohibit" that, but i will lose. likely, if your enemy makes champs and you dont, you will lose.

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On 30/05/2025 at 9:39 PM, TheCJ said:

I am not sure you are? It is possible to make nothing but women and champs. If you work out a good build order for that, it might even be quite strong, since you only really need 40 champs to win against a full cs army (130 units).

It might be possible, but it is not really optimal.

I'm not sure which champions or CS are we talking about? If it's Persian and Seleucid spear cavalry, yeah. 40 Spartiates will also decimate pretty much anything. Anything else will hardly beat a full, balanced CS army.

On 30/05/2025 at 9:38 PM, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I’ll set up something in a com mod version.

I'm sure it will have balancing consequences.

Please, hold that thought.

While watching the Age of Empires 2 DE casts, I've noticed an absurd situation of people having 100 or more Villagers and almost no army. Like literally 5 Scouts and a few Pikes or Archers. The games were either decided in the Feudal age Scout Cavalry rush or they turned into a turtle boomfest that we here all know and love. Which often ends in the trebuchet or bombard cannon wars. 

So, for all intents and purposes, we should do our own thing. At least it leaves a bloody mess once two huge armies collide.

Also, let's not introduce some new thing that will need to be balanced for years. We have experience with rushed changes, already. 

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5 minutes ago, Deicide4u said:

Anything else will hardly beat a full, balanced CS army.

Well, since I posted this, I have tried it in a teamgame, and together with my pocket (who had a normal cs army), my 50 roman sword champs decimated two opposing cs armies while fighting under 2 forts and a cc.

I am also not sure why you think spartiates would be so much stronger than roman or iberian swordsman, why persian or selecid champ cav would be so much stronger than gaulish or roman champ cav and why you disregard the champ pikeman, which are still the most "tanky" unit?

Probably every champ wins against 3 citizen soldiers of his type at once (although I have yet to test this).

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8 hours ago, TheCJ said:

50 roman sword champs

I commend you on getting all that metal with female only economy. But, it should be easier in a team game if you get a lot of traders. Plus, your ally can send you his excess metal.

Anyway, CS have an inherent advantages - low cost and fast training time. 60 Roman Hastati cost you only 600 metal, which is pennies for such a fighting force (that can be buffed by Centurions and later turned into Legionaries).

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There is a level difference here that causes some disagreements in what the “meta” is and what is possible to do in 0ad. For example trading is far from the best way to get champions in team games, currently only feasible on select maps and optimal on just the wolf map I think. Of course trading is great on huge timescales or when metal mines are gone, but it’s rare for higher level games to even reach that state.
 

Adding a male economic in no way forces the game to be like aoe2. I’d also like to mention that while many units are shared between civs in aoe2 the civ context and uniqueness always apply to those units so saying that every civ feels the same is a very surface level observation. If the gameplay design is thoughtful, a male eco unit can have its own role and different use cases in different situations, rather than acting simply as a villager from aoe2.

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13 hours ago, Deicide4u said:

I commend you on getting all that metal with female only economy. But, it should be easier in a team game if you get a lot of traders. Plus, your ally can send you his excess metal.

There is a player who does this from min 15 onward (systematically), and it's not even me @TrashyOtherperson.

Edited by Atrik
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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Classic-Burger said:

What roles did men play in ancient times apart from soldier and peasant?

Mason, lumberjack, merchant, a blacksmith (profession, not a building).

Fishermen in the coastal areas. Probably a lot of other things. Women did mostly knitting, some farming and some other stuff that would be inappropriate to talk about.

Edited by Deicide4u
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12 minutes ago, Deicide4u said:

Rome: Cīvis Rōmānus (Roman Citizen). 

Greek city states (Athens, Sparta, Macedonia): Polítēs (Citizen). 

Athens: Politēs Athēnaîos (Athenian Citizen)

Britons

Carthaginians

Gauls

Han

Iberians

Kushites

Macedonians: Politēs Makedonikḗ (Macedonian Citizen)

Mauryas

Persians

Ptolemies

Romans: Cīvis Rōmānus (Roman Citizen)

Seleucids

Sparta: Politēs Spartiátēs (Spartan Citizen)

 

Also keep in mind the names don't always have to translate to "{Civ} Citizen," it could also be something like Han Peasant, or Gallic Artisan, or anything like that to add cultural flavor. 

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Posted (edited)

The spartan bonus for women can be easily rephrased to refer to just "citizens" and justified by the strict Spartan discipline.

EDIT: It's Fertility Festival, not Female Festival. I guess we don't have to change the tech name, but only the tooltip. The same for Loom. 

Edited by Deicide4u
Fertility Festival, not Female Festival
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2 hours ago, Deicide4u said:

The spartan bonus for women can be easily rephrased to refer to just "citizens" and justified by the strict Spartan discipline.

EDIT: It's Fertility Festival, not Female Festival. I guess we don't have to change the tech name, but only the tooltip. The same for Loom. 

Loom and Fertility Festival are already taken care of in the PR.

As for the old "Spartan Women" bonus, how about calling it "Ritualistic Exercise," eluding to something unique to their culture to justify the bonus?  

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On 10/06/2025 at 6:03 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Athens: Politēs Athēnaîos (Athenian Citizen)

Britons

Carthaginians

Gauls

Han

Iberians

Kushites

Macedonians: Politēs Makedonikḗ (Macedonian Citizen)

Mauryas

Persians

Ptolemies: Politēs Aigýptios (Egyptian Citizen)

Romans: Cīvis Rōmānus (Roman Citizen)

Seleucids: Politēs Seleukidó̱n (Seleucid Citizen)

Sparta: Politēs Spartiátēs (Spartan Citizen)

 

Also keep in mind the names don't always have to translate to "{Civ} Citizen," it could also be something like Han Peasant, or Gallic Artisan, or anything like that to add cultural flavor. 

Calling all historians and others who have helped with unit naming in the past! Lend us your efforts! Once more unto the breech, dear friends! :D 

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  • 2 months later...
On 28/03/2025 at 6:18 PM, Deicide4u said:

2) Women are replaced by a "Citizen" unit that is randomly assigned a gender when created.
These citizens are your economic units. They can gather resources, build all buildings, repair, etc. They don't have different gather rates, the difference is cosmetic. They cost only 50 food, so you don't waste wood on building any gatherers in the early game. Obviously, this requires a new model for male citizens.

Implemented in PR #8062. 

https://gitea.wildfiregames.com/0ad/0ad/pulls/8062

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