On the usage of AI to generate 0 A.D. content

[Vantha]

This is a very important topic in my opinion.

I fully support the team's decision. I believe it's right to resist the temptation of the potential development boost it could provide. It'll prove to be the right decision in the long run.

@Itms worded it really well. Part of what I find makes 0ad so great is the fact that so many talented individuals from all around the world got together and invested so many selfless hours of work to create an awesome game for anyone to play completely for free. 0ad's value goes far beyond the software and gameplay experience.

Imagine a future where projects whose development was assisted by generative AI (to any extent - be it just a few textures) are required to be explicitly labelled as such. Most AI-generated content online is already frowned upon. A small label like this could significantly (terrifyingly) devalue the reputation and history of the game. And that would be incredibly sad, and simply irresponsible towards this great legacy.

Generative AI is a fascinating, and really capable technology, I'd be the last one to deny that. But I think it's a bit ... pointless. Creating something impressive is supposed to take effort. That's what makes it impressive in the first place, no?

Regarding the encyclopedia, I therefore share @ShadowOfHassen's views; we shouldn't and won't use generative AI for texts or images at all.

Edited Monday at 23:10 by Vantha

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

19 hours ago, Wijitmaker said:

Get me a normal map for this and we got a stew goin.  

[Wijitmaker]

2 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Get me a normal map for this and we got a stew goin.  

I'm pretty sure you could kick something out, because when I prompted it (again this is Microsoft's AI which isn't premier) - this was 1 of the 4 it pushed out:

I'm trying not to push the matter, but for you non-artists (speaking as one who made a whole lot of artwork for this game), art is built off of art.  I didn't sit down with oil and paints and canvas to make the celtic building texture you still see in this game - as illustrated here:

Sure, I made some from scratch (the thatched roof texture - I drew with a pencil, scanned, brought into PSP and colorized it, found some leaves and cut & pasted them onto it), but others aspects (the wad and dabble, the stone) I utilized art resources from "other sources".  My thought at the time was, if you modify it enough it becomes yours. I remind you all that WFS (aka WFG) was born out of the modding community.  We modified existing game art. Modifying art incorporates elements from the original work in a transformative way, adding new meaning, interpretation, and in a distinct 0 A.D. artistic style.  What you are essentially doing is using the previous art as a starting point for a new creative expression.  Honestly, this practice was a great way to learn.  You have no idea how many games I tore apart to look at their art assets to see how they were doing something, achieving a certain look, or be efficient in polygons (back when that was important).

Think of it also from a programmers perspective.  Just because you use libraries to accelerate development vs. writing all the low level code from the binary all the way up certainly doesn't cheapen the work that you do.  You are standing on the shoulders of giants.  

I'm not suggesting you use AI art to replace or change the entire look of the game, I'm just saying if you are struggling to push the final aspects of the game over the finish line that you have been laboring at for years now... this might be a lift in the upward direction.  You are still going to have to artistically manipulate its output anyway because it is never going to be perfect.  You wouldn't use art that it kicks out that looks like cartoons or hyper realistic.  Your art lead should be able to hold together the cohesive look of the game. I also don't think anyone would force you as an artist to use AI either if it doesn't give you any pleasure in the creative process.  I just think you should consider it as a tool to put in your toolbox.

For example (of a final push), take this thread.  I didn't read the whole thing, I'm not sure if this list has been completed.  I'm assuming not, otherwise why keep it pinned?

But, if you need help - maybe something like this would help:  https://elevenlabs.io/sound-effects

I get the glory/honor of doing things from scratch - and I respect that.  But at the same time I'm thinking... 25 years in development?  I hope this thing gets to beta before I die 

Again, I respect the team's choice however you decide.  I see the merit from both perspectives.  Sorry for playing devils advocate on this, I just see this as a tool to succeed and I want you all to succeed 

Edited yesterday at 02:01 by Wijitmaker

[alre]

17 hours ago, Itms said:

I'm not an artist but I'm amazed by what they can create and very proud of participating to a project that is so visually appealing. I would be very sad to see this work from humans replaced by generated contents copied over from someone else's work (because "generative" AI creates from plagiarized content, for now).

Jason, the content you sent is beautiful, but knowing that no one spent time on it, demonstrating their skills through it, removes all the value in my eyes. I'm on 0 A.D. to do something selfless, spend much time on something for the love of it. The end result is not by far my main metric of satisfaction.

Similarly, genAI could generate documentation and increase our metrics on this front... but without real added value. If an AI can deduce what the code does, maybe documentation was not absolutely necessary at this place. Worse, it can generate low-quality comments which mask the need for detailed information written by competent developers.

And, my main concern, regardless of the very personal input I'm giving above, is the carbon footprint of these tools, which is ridiculous. If we're accelerating the catastrophe just to splash shiny images on a hobbyist game, we're being very careless. That also includes using genAI for inspiration.

all fine but please let's not all fall for a scare. genAI carbon footprint is concerning, but how large is really?

we don't have a lot of data on this, but I'm reading that a gpt call should take about 2.9 Wh, which is 2000-2500 times less consuming than a single download of the 0AD installer. I suspect that running the whole 0AD codebase trough a LLM for making documentation or something, would produce less CO2 than a single 4v4 team game.

Edited 23 hours ago by alre
fixed reapeated post

[Dunedan]

33 minutes ago, alre said:

we don't have a lot of data on this, but I'm reading that a gpt call should take about 2.9 Wh, which is 2000-2500 times less consuming than a single download of the 0AD installer. I suspect that running the whole 0AD codebase trough a LLM for making documentation or something, would produce less CO2 than a single 4v4 team game.

That 2.9Wh is only for inference and does exclude the vast amount of energy, which is required to train the models.

Thanks to "AI" a nuclear power plant is re-opening for Microsoft (https://edition.cnn.com/2024/09/20/energy/three-mile-island-microsoft-ai/index.html) and Google's emissions are growing, instead of going down as they planned (https://apnews.com/article/climate-google-environmental-report-greenhouse-gases-emissions-3ccf95b9125831d66e676e811ece8a18), to just name two examples.

 

[ShadowOfHassen]

I'm going to be honest, if AI starts to be openly used for art and stuff, I'd probably stop helping.  I have too many problems with it. I could list them all but a big one is I want to be working alongside of a team not people trying to speed run and see if the game can get done quickly.

With all due respect, If someone really wants to see the game out sooner rather than later, instead of suggesting/ using AI. They should do the best they can to help.

13 hours ago, Wijitmaker said:

I get the glory/honor of doing things from scratch - and I respect that.  But at the same time I'm thinking... 25 years in development?  I hope this thing gets to beta before I die 

Well we were talking about just removing the alpha and put it in beta...

Edited 21 hours ago by ShadowOfHassen

[Itms]

53 minutes ago, Dunedan said:

the vast amount of energy, which is required to train the models

and the vast amount of underpaid workers from developing countries

[Lion.Kanzen]

21 hours ago, Itms said:

Jason, the content you sent is beautiful, but knowing that no one spent time on it, demonstrating their skills through it, removes all the value in my eyes. I'm on 0 A.D. to do something selfless, spend much time on something for the love of it. The end result is not by far my main metric of satisfaction.

AI serves more as a teacher, it helps when there are mental blocks resulting from dedicating too many hours to something.

It happens to me all the time, on this forum you will see that the works that did not make it to the game or some mod are my mental blocks.

It's basically when all the initial inspiration is lost.

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, Itms said:

and the vast amount of underpaid workers from developing countries

If we didn't have low payments you wouldn't have cheap things.

That is why all the production went to Asia, China became rich while the West sank.

India and China are emerging from poverty thanks to this.

I'm not complaining about a lower salary, the point is to have a salary rather than not to have one.

But that's another topic.

[Lion.Kanzen]

4 hours ago, Dunedan said:

Thanks to "AI" a nuclear power plant is re-opening for Microsoft

Nuclear energy is the future.

 

Germany shut down its nuclear power and made Russian gas more expensive.

Now Germany, the locomotive of Europe, is sinking.

Solar panels and windmills are not going to save them from that.

They destroy large natural environments for this.

And worse... if they are damaged, they are not recyclable.

 

Edited 19 hours ago by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

I need to find an aesthetic drawing that does not exist, how do I adapt the goddess Roma?

AI gave me the ideas. It wasn't the only source material, but it provided  the art didn't exist.

 

 

 

the difference is very big.

Edited 14 hours ago by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

I forget, you hate AI but you don't support art, you don't participate in the art forum.

They don't support us much and then the rest of the art stagnates, nor do they give suggestions when you don't like it.

[Stan`]

Well I don't want to use IA for the main game. This might change in the future (never say never).

So far I haven't seen much we can use.

For the main game it would be nice to make Lod models for more modest configurations.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, Stan` said:

So far I haven't seen much we can use.

To be honest, just reference or avoid using any copyright.

But only as a guide to improve our techniques or to inspire.

With the she-wolf it didn't work for me using the AI that Jason used.

With Rome as a goddess, it seems like an American Express, but that's the idea.