Spartans

[Emacz]

Not quite sure where this should be posted.  So feel free to move it to a better place. I play sparta a lot.  Lately I've branched out because I feel like they are one of the "most plain" civs.  They have the least variety.  I know when played right they can be really strong, and Brasidas is a bad @#$% hero.   But I'm wondering if there is a way to spice them  up a little.  Ive had these discussions with players in game.  I know originally one of the goals was to be somewhat historical to each civ.  Of course the game needs balance too, so all civs get rams   But im wondering why guals can get their champs (naked fanatics p2) but spartans can't get spartiates until p3 (when from what I understand boys as young as six would go have to start training to be a spartiate!) The game used to mention how spartiates are the strongest melee units in the game.  But wouldnt the upgrade shield barers from mace be better?  Their tech boost dmg and health.  Also melee as it is seems a little broken (ive seen the post on that and plan to follow.)  Would be nice if games were not always won by range units!

just my two cents!

[Player of 0AD]

6 hours ago, Emacz said:

Not quite sure where this should be posted.  So feel free to move it to a better place. I play sparta a lot.  Lately I've branched out because I feel like they are one of the "most plain" civs.  They have the least variety.  I know when played right they can be really strong, and Brasidas is a bad @#$% hero.   But I'm wondering if there is a way to spice them  up a little.  Ive had these discussions with players in game.  I know originally one of the goals was to be somewhat historical to each civ.  Of course the game needs balance too, so all civs get rams   But im wondering why guals can get their champs (naked fanatics p2) but spartans can't get spartiates until p3 (when from what I understand boys as young as six would go have to start training to be a spartiate!) The game used to mention how spartiates are the strongest melee units in the game.  But wouldnt the upgrade shield barers from mace be better?  Their tech boost dmg and health.  Also melee as it is seems a little broken (ive seen the post on that and plan to follow.)  Would be nice if games were not always won by range units!

just my two cents!

No. Spartiates get 25% extra health from their unique upgrade. Silver shields only get 10% for health and damage each.

Matches can be won by melee units indeed. Its not like ranged units always decide.

[Vantha]

Naked Fanatics are not comparable to Spartiates. They have a lot less armor/resistance. Still, I agree that Spartiates should be stronger. Their upgrade also gives +25% training time, they are at most equally strong as the Macedonian silver shields. I think, Spartiates should be (more) clearly the strongest melee unit in the game for historical accuracy.

 

Yes, Spartans are in many ways a "plain" civ, but they have the Skiritai. They are trained in p2 without any upgrade required, are substantially stronger than normal swordsmen and they can collect resources and build. They do cost wood, food and metal, but are way cheaper than normal champions. You can easily get up to 50 Skiritai in a 200 pop max game. There's no other unit like this in the game, as far as I'm aware.

 

Btw, I think there is historical evidence of Spartans using rams.

 

[Pemulis]

2 hours ago, Vantha said:

Still, I agree that Spartiates should be stronger. Their upgrade also gives +25% training time, they are at most equally strong as the Macedonian silver shields. I think, Spartiates should be (more) clearly the strongest melee unit in the game for historical accuracy.

 

I totally agree on this, giving to them something more than the other spear champions would be very reasonable. But I think there were something going on about this on the borg-'s post about differentiating Spartan civ.

By now the biggest issue for this civ is imho the very poor mobility.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

@borg- has a very awesome differentiating Sparta patch that was committed a bit ago. This makes it far from ‘plain’

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4736

this addresses a lot of your concerns.

Among the other changes, Champ hoplites are available in p1 owing to the huge cultural importance of the spartiates.

They will still have mobility issues but this is just a weakness of the civ.

Edited August 14, 2023 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Emacz]

 

4 hours ago, Vantha said:

Naked Fanatics are not comparable to Spartiates. They have a lot less armor/resistance. Still, I agree that Spartiates should be stronger. Their upgrade also gives +25% training time, they are at most equally strong as the Macedonian silver shields. I think, Spartiates should be (more) clearly the strongest melee unit in the game for historical accuracy.

 

Yes, Spartans are in many ways a "plain" civ, but they have the Skiritai. They are trained in p2 without any upgrade required, are substantially stronger than normal swordsmen and they can collect resources and build. They do cost wood, food and metal, but are way cheaper than normal champions. You can easily get up to 50 Skiritai in a 200 pop max game. There's no other unit like this in the game, as far as I'm aware.

 

Btw, I think there is historical evidence of Spartans using rams.

 

I wasn't necessarily comparing their stats to Naked Fanatics, just pointing out Gauls get champs p2 and Spartans have to wait for their only champs until p3, even though historically it sounds like Spartiate's started training at a very young age.  Maybe Spartiates could be available p2, and have similar stats to Naked Fanatics, and then when you get to p3 u research to improve health and armor...

I agree that skiritai are pretty strong, but again I'm just saying that it would be nice to use Spartiates more effectively since they were an essential part of Spartan life and war.  Were there skirtai in Spartan armies?

I wasn't talking about Spartans and rams.... but if I remember correctly a few alphas ago not every civ had them, specifically athens comes to mind.  People complained, and all civs have rams now!

7 hours ago, Player of 0AD said:

No. Spartiates get 25% extra health from their unique upgrade. Silver shields only get 10% for health and damage each.

Matches can be won by melee units indeed. Its not like ranged units always decide.

I haven't really tested but if you had an army of say 25 upgraded Spartiates and 25 upgrades Silver shields who wins?  And like Vantha mentioned the 25% health increase the production time for spartiates where I dont think the upgrade to Silver shields does?

[Emacz]

1 hour ago, Pemulis said:

I totally agree on this, giving to them something more than the other spear champions would be very reasonable. But I think there were something going on about this on the borg-'s post about differentiating Spartan civ.

By now the biggest issue for this civ is imho the very poor mobility.

I have talked to Borg- in game about this.  I just haven't been very active on forum

I think if spartiates had Naked fantic speed.... that would help

[Emacz]

8 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

@borg- has a very awesome differentiating Sparta patch that was committed a bit ago. This makes it far from ‘plain’

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4736

this addresses a lot of your concerns.

Among the other changes, Champ hoplites are available in p1 owing to the huge cultural importance of the spartiates.

They will still have mobility issues but this is just a weakness of the civ.

Thanks!  The problem with all these patches is that then the people you play against need to have it right?  It would be nice if some were implemented into communit mod.

Speaking of which Iber get 20% extra melee bonus tech from forge... Im sure there is some historical significance there, but maybe Spartans could also have another additional txt.  Since skirtai are pretty strong, maybe it's only avialble to spearmen.

I remember when the 25% health bonus also applied to Agnus, who had 2k health and then with it 2500 health.  He was a recking ball!

[real_tabasco_sauce]

 there are a number of unique techs added, as well as bonuses.

I guess you could apply the patches in svn and try to play, but these are committed and will be in the coming alpha 27, unless we need to balance some of it.

[borg-]

Hi all!

We have some news for sparta for the next alpha, like champions available in Village Phase, champions can promote to olimpic champion, technologies like increased movement speed for champions, new unit, among other things. Some things we are still working on and adding.

Edited August 14, 2023 by borg-

[Emacz]

3 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

 there are a number of unique techs added, as well as bonuses.

I guess you could apply the patches in svn and try to play, but these are committed and will be in the coming alpha 27, unless we need to balance some of it.

 

2 hours ago, borg- said:

Hi all!

We have some news for sparta for the next alpha, like champions available in Village Phase, champions can promote to olimpic champion, technologies like increased movement speed for champions, new unit, among other things. Some things we are still working on and adding.

This is great news, the only problem now is a27's release has been temporarily halted for the foreseeable future  

Unfortunately, I'm not very tech savvy,  I can't really contribute with coding etc.  But I do have a lot of spare time and can definitely test things out!  I feel like I came across a thread to download a27 to test for bugs/balance?  I could do that. It would be nice if some of these things could be implemented into a new version of community mod so more people could test things out easier.  

[real_tabasco_sauce]

You are probably referencing the release candidate for a27. These changes are not in that version, but I’m certain there will be another release candidate on the way later. so I’d say stay tuned for the next release candidate to drop, and then you will be able to play test the Sparta update.

[Vantha]

Why not nerf trading of the Spartans? (Would make sense historically) Maybe make it so the lycurgan reforms tech removes bartering. Or adds a cool down. Just an idea

[Emacz]

4 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

You are probably referencing the release candidate for a27. These changes are not in that version, but I’m certain there will be another release candidate on the way later. so I’d say stay tuned for the next release candidate to drop, and then you will be able to play test the Sparta update.

yeah, alpha 27... ok so we need to wait EVEN longer for spartans to be good  

58 minutes ago, Vantha said:

Why not nerf trading of the Spartans? (Would make sense historically) Maybe make it so the lycurgan reforms tech removes bartering. Or adds a cool down. Just an idea

What do you mean here?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

4 hours ago, Emacz said:

yeah, alpha 27... ok so we need to wait EVEN longer for spartans to be good  

Or you could try them in Delenda Est. Some of the concepts used in Delenda Est's Spartans have made it into A27.

[Vantha]

10 hours ago, Emacz said:

What do you mean here?

The Spartans will get a civ bonus called "laws of lyrcurgus" which unlocks the champions in p1. Lyrcurgus also changed Spartas currency to hinder trading. The Spartans couldn't really engage in any form of trading. So why not remove bartering at the Spartan market or the ability to train traders?

Edited August 15, 2023 by Vantha

[Gurken Khan]

Removing bartering seems too crass of a disadvantage to me.

[Emacz]

13 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Or you could try them in Delenda Est. Some of the concepts used in Delenda Est's Spartans have made it into A27.

Thanks! I will try and find someone to mess around with it on.

The problem with all the different mods is its harder to find games.  Even community mod, not everyone is on board.  I definitely prefer multiplayer games instead of the AI

[Vantha]

10 hours ago, Gurken Khan said:

Removing bartering seems too crass of a disadvantage to me.

It would need to be rebalanced somehow, of course. Removing bartering would be very hard to rebalance, you're right. But removing merchants doesn't seem that big of a disadvantage to me.

It's just an idea.

[Gurken Khan]

1 hour ago, Vantha said:

But removing merchants doesn't seem that big of a disadvantage to me.

Yeah, I usually have some traders because that's what an empire does, but if for example my ally is a dud and trading's not worth it then so be it. (In an average game the gains aren't too high anyway and traders & tecs cost some pretty resources including metal...)

[LetswaveaBook]

On 15/08/2023 at 5:55 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Or you could try them in Delenda Est. Some of the concepts used in Delenda Est's Spartans have made it into A27

I think DE has a cooler version of skiritai

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 16/08/2023 at 11:43 AM, LetswaveaBook said:

I think DE has a cooler version of skiritai

to show what @LetswaveaBook is talking about: 

 

[Vantha]

Are Skiritai spearmen in DE?

Or pikemen?

Edited August 18, 2023 by Vantha

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

51 minutes ago, Vantha said:

Are Skiritai spearmen in DE?

Or pikemen?

Fast hoplites. In DE, hoplites have different stats from "standard spearmen" plus a Shield Wall aura that boosts the armor of other nearby hoplites. This aura's range is short enough that usually you need to use the Phalanx/Shield Wall formation for it to apply to as many nearby hoplites as possible. 

[Emacz]

On 14/08/2023 at 11:55 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Or you could try them in Delenda Est. Some of the concepts used in Delenda Est's Spartans have made it into A27.

Thanks! I will try and find someone to mess around with it on.

The problem with all the different mods is its harder to find games.  Even community mod, not everyone is on board.  I defintley prefer multiplayer games instead of the AI

On 16/08/2023 at 11:43 AM, LetswaveaBook said:

I think DE has a cooler version of skiritai

 

17 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

to show what @LetswaveaBook is talking about: 

 

 

2 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Fast hoplites. In DE, hoplites have different stats from "standard spearmen" plus a Shield Wall aura that boosts the armor of other nearby hoplites. This aura's range is short enough that usually you need to use the Phalanx/Shield Wall formation for it to apply to as many nearby hoplites as possible. 

So i did mess around with it, and there are parts i LIKE! but it does seem a bit more complicated... I dont like how soldiers can't gather, only women and slaves... seems to be "slower" of a game. Hopefully they take some of the ideas from it though and implement into next alpha/community mod.
I know skiriati are really powerful, but I dont remember if i've mention this above.  It can be hard to mass them and push while ur still ahead/even pop/eco.