proGUI

[Atrik]

1 hour ago, alre said:

Something like sniping definitely goes in the opposite direction though, and I argue that sniping is undeniably against 0 AD principle of denying "fastest click wins" strategies. Sniping is not about strategy or skill really, apart from just clicking very fast.

On 03/05/2023 at 11:01 AM, Atrik said:

New Stances : Focus weakest unit in range / Focus closest unit?

You convinced me already at least, beside the legend of the "auto-sniping bot that will end 0ad", actually this feature would in my opinion:

1. Not be even that much impactful. That will just replace the time used from sniping to more melee micro like moving small groups. So probably skill gap would just be diverged to some more interesting mechanics then sniping.
2. You haven't provided much details on expected features but if it just allow ranged units to focus weakest (lower resistance and health) units within range, you'll still have to place units correctly.
3. Nothing changes about mechanics, you can't move skims pass a line of pikes to kill archers, unless you play well with movements. It's not going to be the button you'll press and it wins the fight. This is probably a thought that come up because fights right now are about not forgetting any unit when spamming clicks. More like, just a (could be) basic feature. Replace the 50x clicks by just placing the units in range of weak units.
4. This counter the bait and flee (dancing) or the passive mod bait in big battles. So you fix one abuses possible that a script could do, that clearly, would be annoying.

I see only pros and maybe it would be great to have it in main game.

[Atrik]

This added to melee charging when engaging more predictably, this would maybe lead to more interesting micro-management and strategies that we all wish to see more:

 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

5 hours ago, alre said:

Maybe. Something like sniping definitely goes in the opposite direction though, and I argue that sniping is undeniably against 0 AD principle of denying "fastest click wins" strategies. Sniping is not about strategy or skill really, apart from just clicking very fast.

Is it not obvious then to fix the actual problem, instead of making sniping automatic?

5 hours ago, alre said:

Said who?

It is common knowledge that having an appropriate skill gap is important for entertainment. Players want to learn and improve. This is how players enjoy games for years, not a couple of weeks.

You brought up adding a completely inappropriate skill gap (singing) to explain why it is bad to have an appropriate skill gap (micro) in 0ad, which is comical.

Notice I never said we should add more micro, just that we should caution ourselves on automating important parts of the game.

If someone wants to automate a lot of the game on their own, I say they are welcome to, but this should be used in casual games, not super competitive ones.

Edited May 5, 2023 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Lion.Kanzen]

5 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Notice I never said we should add more micro, just that we should caution ourselves on automating important parts of the game.

It is impossible that there is no micromanagement in an RTS.

 

Even total war has some micromanagement.

 

Perhaps the use of battalions will decrease the exaggerated micro-management, only certain units that need to be fired from a distance and more those with mounted missiles.

 

[ufa]

Just double checking:

• in theory mods can contain cheats (like revealing the entire map, or seeing enemy stats), un-agreed upon advantages (like automating certain aspects of gameplay)
• it's not possible to see what mods someone is using, and even if it was it's possible to disguise what mods are truly active (per @Atrik, "hiding a mod in a mod")
• there is no in-game mechanic to prevent undesirable or far-reaching mods in multiplayer gameplay

Probably old news (and I've heard through the grapevine that most competitive players have their own cocktail of not public mods), I'd just long thought that—similar to what happens if all players don't share the same mods in the lobby—multiplayer matches would get thrown off. Apparently this is not the case, and someone could in theory have a sniping mod or free-resource mod and it would not interrupt gameplay?

[Atrik]

7 hours ago, ufa said:

and someone could in theory have a sniping mod or free-resource mod and it would not interrupt gameplay?

Making a free-resource mod without OSS would probably mean you hacked the game. And be obvious cheat.

As for the "sniping mod", still no description of what it does from @alre but:

1. NOT "auto-aim", it's possible you may think that this sniping thing could be as broken as an auto-aim in FPSs. However your army isn't going to be wiped out just when someone press the button. It will JUST replace for players the need to click on all enemies units, by good positioning and a single click.
2. More interesting micro: now instead of having to spam the sniping clicks, you can allocate your attention to path units takes to flank, reach ranged with cav etc...

My view is that the game would be fun if it evolves to introduce new fun mechanics like charges and kickbacks effects (like when cav engage infantry, they get a little kick back also preventing any actions for 0.5sec).

Few stupid ideas for formation perks:

In wedge formation, +20% charge bonus, all units benefits from the head units charge speed bonus.

In any close formations, +20% charge resistance.

Open formations, +15% chance to avoid projectiles (smaller hitbox or anything).

 

But hey, maybe instead we should do everything to freeze to current meta where the most important thing is to select ranged and click ON EVER SINGLE ENEMY UNIT.

The more I think about it, the more I want to beg @alre to push his idea lol.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, Atrik said:

But hey, maybe instead we should do everything to freeze to current meta where the most important thing is to select ranged and click ON EVER SINGLE ENEMY UNIT.

Not sure if you mean "freeze" which would mean to keep the current meta and keep sniping.

What I have been saying is to just fix the actual problem, so that sniping does not win every time. (maybe only for certain special situations).

Here is my solution, it will debut in the community mod since it is such a large rebalance.

 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, Atrik said:

My view is that the game would be fun if it evolves to introduce new fun mechanics like charges

I believe there was a "charge" at some point, but it was a bug XD. This might have been one of the a25 release candidates, I can't remember.

[Lion.Kanzen]

41 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I believe there was a "charge" at some point, but it was a bug XD. This might have been one of the a25 release candidates, I can't remember.

It gives to make a topic about innovative mechanics. That's important because every time the team introduces one they have to rebalance the game (that's good).

 

Sometimes I would like to touch those topics before the change happens.

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, Atrik said:

Few stupid ideas for formation perks

We all have this idea in mind, don't call it an idiotic/stupid idea.

[Atrik]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

What I have been saying is to just fix the actual problem, so that sniping does not win every time. (maybe only for certain special situations).

It's true melee re-balance would decrease the problem by making the default attack on closest enemy more reasonable in more situations. And your proposed changes are exciting. But fix sniping? Really don't a stance that allow for sorting units by resistance or anything is neat?

 

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

We all have this idea in mind, don't call it an idiotic/stupid idea.

darn, cool.

Would be so much fun to have a kickback thing too when charging. 
Definitively, funnier stuff then sniping (aka click on all enemy units to emulate sortUnitsByResitance(); ) would be good for the game.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Eliminate sniping, no. We can’t do that since it is just the user controlling units. However, the rebalance should reduce its effectiveness so that it is likely less effective than other forms of micro. Note that this depends enormously on composition and upgrades.

automatically sorting by resistance would be extremely lame as this is automating a part of the game that depends on player knowledge, experience, and skill.

automating this puts way too much control into a “black box”.

in an ideal balance context, the advantage gained from manual targeting will be very small anyway. The benefit of automating it would be obscure for most players, and for experienced players, it would just mean watching a mathematically determined battle outcome, hands free. In battles, I want some control over the outcome this is part of the excitement of 0ad.

Instead of proposing automated workarounds, let’s actually address the root of the problem:

https://gitlab.com/real_tabasco_sauce/0-a-d-community-mod-unit-specific-upgrades/-/compare/main...melee_buff?from_project_id=36954588&page=2&straight=false

In other words, let opportunity cost be the reason to use micro other than sniping.

Edited May 5, 2023 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Atrik]

Thanks @seeh for your tutorial (or game-play walk-through ).
By default, every features like the "trainer" are disabled, some players could be interested by just the overlay.

 

So I though I could also make a short one to introduce the overlay.

proGUI overlay overview:

 

[Atrik]

Also did this one for the trainer feature:

 

[Atrik]

9 minutes ago, seeh said:

how could this number changed?

This icons appear if you activate "barter panel" setting, and will display the current market prices of each resources. So the number isn't a setting, but are displaying current resource worth on the market. (Price are always at 90 until you or another player start buying resources).
=> In short lower number just means this resource is worth less on the market.

I did this because I find it useful to have a compact overview of the market on screen, at all time.

Additionally, for an advanced use, if you press/toggle this icon, it can be used to buy this resource while some price conditions are met (and if you have a market ofc). The conditions can be explored/changed in the settings. It has a few edge cases, but doesn't replace the normal market panel by any means.

[Atrik]

You should see a small menu/panel popping when right clicking the trainer button.
https://youtu.be/ob87oBd57Is?t=150

@seeh

Edited May 29, 2023 by Atrik

[Atrik]

2 hours ago, seeh said:

now much importand. but you have idea whey the menue  looks a bit different in your video?

The difference is that you have "barter panel" setting enabled and me not. But the menu for trainer is the same so I don't understand why you get confused by it.

 

2 hours ago, seeh said:

so wonder it wa only 2. i have lots food resouces (sorry not in this screenshot )

It was probably for another reason, maybe it started training this batch before you change the setting or because you had limited housing.

[Atrik]

If you have QuickStart enabled :tThe first batch trained may be defined by QuickStart instead of the Trainer when both are active. You can simply set the desired units to train and first batch size in QuickStart settings. The default settings when enabling QuickStart is a to produce a batch of 3 females while doing the starting sequence.

[Atrik]

1 hour ago, seeh said:

do you mean a batch of 3 is better?

It's just default settings, this really depends on your build order as a player, sometimes you want to have a first small batch of females to build or gather, I personally like to make a first cav unit before any females.

[Atrik]

Sorry @seeh I don't think proGUI is causing this.

Spoiler

[Atrik]

Look like you currently have "compo mode" setting.
UI: In this (not default) mode, the % (on your picture, 5 for females) doesn't reset if you toggle (∞) the unit.
Trainer: (on your picture) Will still work like you would expect: Train females, until further input from you.


Example of how to use: Say you start the game and want to switch all production to slingers (either to defend a rush or to lead a assault on some woodline). Simply toggle-on slinger.



Once done (you have sufficient amount of slingers) you can toggle off and it will resume the composition training.


If you reset to the default mode in settings "spam mode" (We need to find better settings name lol):
Then you will either see only ∞ or the %, And the value will be forgotten when you toggle-on a unit.

Default settings, you will only see XX% or  ∞  But more clicks if you like to change trainer inputs often.

 

5 hours ago, seeh said:

is it means minimum batch is 5 ? but max is unlimited ?

Maximum batch size can be found in the trainer context menu along the reserves. Here 12. Can change value with mouse-wheel.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Atrik

[Atrik]

6 minutes ago, seeh said:

on/off Tribute Allies

Would not trigger on players with 'custom rating', it should now be patched.

[Atrik]

@seeh I don't have this bug, It's probably not related, can you double check?

[Atrik]

19 minutes ago, seeh said:

yes, i fresh installed a mod ... now fixed. btw ==> thanks a lot again for this proGUI feature.
here as special thanks for this:

Thank you @seeh!

[Emacz]

On 09/03/2023 at 5:45 AM, Kampot said:

When feature is available to EVERYONE it is not cheating but it is game feature. Use your words wisely. 

Also any new features usually comes from smart people. It is kind of automation (easing manual repetive tasks) and focus more on strategy. Usually this is how game should evolve.

It cannot be considered as cheating. 

Cheating is what gives you advantage and you don't have access to it.

- Game modification which are not publicly available and not possible to integrate to future 0ad version to enhance game play
- Modification of game stats
- Physical hw cheatings / different HW (faster, better mouse, mechanical keyboard...) these nobody considers, but gives huge advantage in response times.  Auto-aim, multiclicks... etc..

is taking steroids cheating in sports?  there are people who have access to them but dont want to risk the long term consequences. I get there are no health concerns if you use it or not... but i disagree with it can not be cheating if everyone has access to it.  I am getting fed up with ProGui as well.  GUI, I'm all for.  But the more things you automate the less a human has to think... it takes away from the people who are quick thinkers/decision makers. evens that out IMO.