Genava55

Something is bothering me with this method. Both Bulgaria and Romania speak a different language, unrelated to the Dacians and Thracians. I don't see why they should have conserved the architecture of their distant and unrelated ancestors. This is like using rural architecture of England and France for the Britons and Gauls.

The Gauls is associated to the culture of La Tène which extent to the Carpathian mountains. In Transylvania, the Celts were established up to 200/180 BC according to the archaeological records. It was probably people from the Taurisci confederacy. There are also the Anartes and Cotini in modern day Slovakia. In modern day Serbia, the Scordisci were the main people established there. In Thrace, the kingdom of Tylis emerged with the invasion of the Galatians and disappear around 200 BC due to the wars with Thracians. Finally there are the Bastarnae and the Britolagi mentioned in Romania and Moldavia. The Britolagi are probably a Celtic people who migrated in Northern Romania. The Bastarnae are probably a Germanic people who migrated from Poland to Moldavia. What is represented on the illustrations of Radu Oltean are not proper Celts. After 180 BC, there are some interesting warrior burials emerging in the region of the iron gates (north-eastern Bulgaria) and in Transylvania. Those burials are mixing elements from Thracian tradition and from Celtic tradition. Notably the weapons are exclusively Celtic. This people is not very understood. They are known exclusively from those warrior burials. There are several theories about them, either they represent the Minor Scordisci, a branch of the Scordisci mentioned in late sources, the Triballi, or the Dacians. The Romanian historians generally think those people are the birth of the Dacian aristocracy. Radu Oltean represented them as such. @wowgetoffyourcellphone would like to have both the Dacians and the Thracians. So I think it would be best to distinguish evidences from the Dacian period from those related to the Thracian period. I have put evidences from archaeological sites with proper description. Seuthopolis, Sboryanovo, Sinemorets, Pistiros and Kozi Gramadi should be enough. Did you investigate those?

already there: ps: To avoid the display bug, first open the hidden section, then expand

One of such has been found in Mesembria which is a Greek city on the Thracian coast:

Finding a preserved wall is extremely rare but such frescoes exist inside the Thracian tombs: Helvetia tomb, near Shipka in Bulgaria and Maglizh tomb in Stara Zagora, Bulgaria Thracian tomb of Kazanlak Thracian tomb of Aleksandrovo Svesthari tomb General

Possible wonder? The sanctuary of Tatul: https://stock.adobe.com/nl/images/drone-top-view-thracian-sanctuary-located-near-tatul-bulgaria-carved-grave-cut-in-the-rock-ii-millennium-bc/459965556?as_campaign=ftmigration2&as_channel=dpcft&as_campclass=brand&as_source=ft_web&as_camptype=acquisition&as_audience=users&as_content=closure_asset-detail-page&asset_id=477666973 https://www.tourism.government.bg/en/tourist-destinations/2801/5546

Again, some pictures I already posted in the past: Edit: pictures I just posted in the AC Odyssey thread

+ + + ----------------------- => all civilizations in 0 A.D. are designed according to their best and most magnificent settlements. Not the regular and average ones. For example, the Persians are designing according to the buildings of their most important cities, which does not represent the majority of the settlement the population of their empire lived in.

Sorry but that's not your best work.

And wooden Greek-like buildings are beautiful in AC Odyssey because of the textures and the colors. Without those, it can be really ugly. Remember that:

Although they didn't have been found among Thracians. In my opinion, the major issue is due to the Thracians princes (Odrysians, Bessi, Getae etc.) who lived in fortified towns with stone-cutting walls and were buried in Greek-style tomb with stone-cutting structures. I will insist because for me the Thracians must have a design with more stones. I would better understand a wood-based design for the Dacians.

+ + + .

There is a huge gap in the required skill between simulating a disconnection and extracting compiled information from JS

I doubt it

Thracian tomb of Aleksandrovo Thracian tomb of Cotys I Thracian tomb Golyama Arsenalka Thracian tomb Griffins Thracian tomb Helvetia Thracian Tomb of Kazanlak Thracian tomb Ostrusha Thracian tomb of Seuthes III Thracian tomb Shushmanets Thracian Tomb of Sveshtari It would be nice to have a Thracian tumulus tomb as a special building. It wouldn't be difficult to make. This is basically an earth tumulus with a few structures around. The easiest is to do a monumental gate with a greek column at the entrance and an outer wall. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_tomb_Shushmanets#/media/File:Shushmanets3.jpg https://360image.net/product/thracian-tomb-shushmanets-bulgaria-3-5/ (Thracian tomb from Starosel) The conception of a Thracian tomb is very similar to Macedonian ones. Therefore, if it is too difficult to understand how a Thracian tomb works without an illustration, I suggest to check how the Macedonian ones were since they are more popular and more covered by the medias. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergina#/media/File:Makieta_grobowca_Filipa.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergina#/media/File:Facade_of_Philip_II_tomb_Vergina_Greece.jpg http://www.amfipolis.com/amphipolis-tomb/ http://www.amfipolis.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/amphipolis-tomb1.jpg

A few interesting references: The Valley of the Kings? Social Complexity of Inland Thrace during the First Millennium BC. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/295262199_The_Valley_of_the_Kings_Social_Complexity_of_Inland_Thrace_during_the_First_Millennium_BC Urbanization - In: Julia Valeva, Denver Graninger, and Emil Nankov (eds.) A Companion to Ancient Thrace. https://www.academia.edu/6793751/Urbanization_in_J_Valeva_E_Nankov_and_D_Graninger_eds_A_Companion_to_Ancient_Thrace_Wiley_Blackwell_2015_399_411 The first Thracian urban and rural dwellings, and stonecutting techniques. https://www.talanta.nl/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/TAL-32-33-2000-2001-022-artikel-tot-pg-253.pdf Kozi Gramadi. Studies of an Odrysian ruler's residence and sanctuaries in Sredna Gora Mt. (8th—1st centuries BC). https://www.academia.edu/4935133/KOZI_GRAMADI_STUDIES_OF_AN_ODRYSIAN_RULER_S_RESIDENCE_AND_SANCTUARIES_IN_SREDNA_GORA_MT_8TH_1ST_CENTURIES_BC The Fortifications of The Early Hellenistic Thracian City of Seuthopolis. https://www.academia.edu/424819/THE_FORTIFICATIONS_OF_THE_EARLY_HELLENISTIC_THRACIAN_CITY_OF_SEUTHOPOLIS_BREAKING_THE_MOLD Sboryanovo. Volume III: The Thracian City - City planning. Fortification system. Architecture. https://www.academia.edu/43425810/THE_THRACIAN_CITY_CITY_PLANNING_FORTIFICATION_SYSTEM_ARCHITECTURE_Sboryanovo_VOLUME_III_2015_ The Tumulus of Golyamata Mogila near the villages of Malomirovo and Zlatinitsa. https://www.academia.edu/12392747/The_Tumulus_of_Golyamata_Mogila_near_the_villages_of_Malomirovo_and_Zlatinitsa_Chapter_I + https://www.academia.edu/12392810/The_Tumulus_of_Golyamata_Mogila_near_the_villages_of_Malomirovo_and_Zlatinitsa_Chapter_II_III + https://www.academia.edu/12392889/The_Tumulus_of_Golyamata_Mogila_near_the_villages_of_Malomirovo_and_Zlatinitsa_Chapter_III_IV Lysimachus, the Getae, and archaeology. https://www.jstor.org/stable/1558897 L’épopée des rois thraces, des guerres médiques aux invasions celtes (479-278 av. J.-C.). Découvertes archéologiques en Bulgarie. [a lot of pictures!] https://www.academia.edu/11989784/L_épopée_des_rois_thraces_des_guerres_médiques_aux_invasions_celtes_479_278_av_J_C_Découvertes_archéologiques_en_Bulgarie Odrysian arms, equipment, and tactics. https://www.academia.edu/738235/Odyrsian_arms_equipment_and_tactics Warfare. - In: Julia Valeva, Denver Graninger, and Emil Nankov (eds.) A Companion to Ancient Thrace. https://www.academia.edu/21657079/Stoyanov_Totko_Warfare_In_Julia_Valeva_Denver_Graninger_and_Emil_Nankov_eds_A_Companion_to_Ancient_Thrace_Wiley_Blackwell_2015_426_442 The Chalkidian helmets and the origin of the North Thracian ceremonial armour. https://www.academia.edu/21902640/L_Ognenova_T_Stoyanov_The_Chalkidian_helmets_and_the_origin_of_the_North_Thracian_ceremonial_armour_SAUS_Suppl_4_Stephanos_Arcaeologicos_in_honorem_Professoris_Ludmili_Getov_Sofia_2005_р_519_539 Thracian Warriors in Transylvania at the Beginning of the Late Iron Age. The Grave with Chalcidian helmet from Ocna Sibiului. https://www.academia.edu/2026130/A_Rustoiu_S_Berecki_Thracian_Warriors_in_Transylvania_at_the_Beginning_of_the_Late_Iron_Age_The_Grave_with_Chalcidian_helmet_from_Ocna_Sibiului Archaeological textiles in pre-Roman Thrace: state of the evidence. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/348976061_Archaeological_textiles_in_pre-Roman_Thrace_state_of_the_evidence The greaves from Agighiol (Romania) and Vratsa (Bulgaria) Reconsidered. https://www.academia.edu/39838055/The_greaves_from_Agighiol_Romania_and_Vratsa_Bulgaria_Reconsidered A Bell Cuirass from the Tumulus № II Near the Village of Gorski Izvor. https://www.academia.edu/83166683/Ya_Ivanov_A_Bell_Cuirass_from_the_Tumulus_II_Near_the_Village_of_Gorski_Izvor_Brief_Analysis_of_the_Cuirasses_from_Thrace_Sofia_2022_pdf

Thanks. If I am asking you a few questions, this is simply to understand what's going on in a longer term perspective. I also think it's worth remembering that the Germans have a long and turbulent history. --------------- They appeared in history with the Cimbri and the Bastarnae during the second century BC, for the first they were a migration of a vast population in search of a new territory which involved other peoples and chiefs in its wake, probably in a way quite similar to the Celtic migrations into Italy and Greece. The latter were probably a conglomeration of populations, also on the run, but who settled fairly quickly in Moldavia and near the Danube Delta. A little later in the 1st century BC, it was the Germans of the Elbe region who united under a powerful leader and began to take control of different territories. This leads to upheavals in neighboring regions. The Sequani seek the aid of the Suebi against the Aedui supported by Rome. We see peoples like the Ubians, the Tencteri and the Usipetes confront each other and try to migrate to Gaul. The Helvetii attempted the same approach in order to avoid upheaval and looting. This first period is therefore characterized by different migration attempts on the part of the Germans. The Cimbri failed for different reasons. They had some success, notably by plundering Illyria, the Noric kingdom and Transalpine Gaul under Roman control. However, they are repulsed by the Scordisci, by the Boians, by the Belgians and by the Celtiberians. Even when they defeat the Norici, they do not settle there. On the contrary, each victory excites them and encourages them to continue. During their plunder, they attracted the lust of other peoples and this is probably how the Teutones, Ambrones, Tigurini (Helvetians), Toygeni (Helvetians) and Volcae Tectosages end up joining them. The first successes against the Romans are annihilated by the defeats that Marius inflicts on them. Concerning Ariovistus, he succeeded in installing part of his population, the Harudes, on the territory of the Sequani. The rest of the Suevi coalition settled near the Rhine, including the Triboci, the Nemetes, the Vangions and the Marcomanni. These took territories from the Celts, probably shortly before the Gallic Wars. However Ariovistus is defeated by Caesar and the Harudes were expelled. The success of this migration is partial, but it foreshadows the geopolitical context to come. The Germanic populations monopolized a territory between the Rhine and the Elbe, which will become a part of Germania. The only people who had a total success are the Bastarnae who permanently occupied the territory located in Moldavia. They lived here for over 500 years. In a second time, the Germanic migrations calm down. At least, they no longer concern the Greco-Roman world. The Germans have a complicated relationship with their Roman neighbors, they very often receive diplomatic gifts intended to calm their ambition, they regularly serve the armies of Rome and most clashes with the Romans are mainly on the territory of the Germans and are defensive wars (for them). The Germanic world was mainly turned in on itself at that time. During this period, the Suevi (and other Elbe Germans) played a minor role in history. They underwent the campaign of Drusus and it is probable that the Suevi and the Marcomanni left the region near the Rhine following this campaign. From that moment on, the Suevi are either allies or client kingdoms of the Romans. It was other peoples who faced Rome, notably the Cherusci, Bructeri, Marsi, Sicambri, Chauci, Chatti and Batavi. Eventually the Elbe Germans again became an interest only with the Marcomannic Wars (AD 166–180). During the period of migrations, the most active Germanic peoples are the Goths and by far. They are the most powerful and successful people. Then come the Franks and the Alamanni. The former are Germans from the Rhine, the latter are Germans from the Elbe. The Franks and Alamanni tried to plunder the Roman Empire several times and to settle there during the 3rd and 4th centuries, but they were successful only during the beginning of the 5th century. There are also the Saxons, known for their invasion of Britannia, but most of their interesting history happened after the 5th century, so they are probably not considered for Empires Besieged. The Vandals can be considered as close to the Goths, as they are Eastern Germans too, nonetheless they are a powerful and successful people during the 5th century. --------------- So it should be considered there are other Germanic people famous and probably future candidates. I have no doubt that the Goths will be considered, this is already the case in DE. Cimbri, Suebi and Goths... this is already 3 civs. It is a problem quite similar to the Greek city-states and to the Hellenistic kingdoms. If you start looking, there are interesting candidates (Syracuse, Thebes, Corinth, Pergamon, Bithynia, Pontus, Bosphorus, Bactria etc.)

So if I understand your message correctly, the Cimbri won't be a part of the main game (Empires Ascendant), only a civ for a mod. Right? Edit: so it is better to keep the changes to the minimum from the original Suebi El famoso sequel... in the end it won't be a different game but an extension of the current Empires Ascendant right? So all the factions from Empires Besieged would be available alongside those from Empires Ascendant, right?

Then why this thread? Why all this debate about the Cimbri? Is this what you want?

Then could you explain to me this :

Although I don't understand why we are talking about including a German faction in 0 A.D. vanilla, it is very sudden. Scythians, Xiongnu, Lusitanians, Thracians, Cimbri, Maya, Zapotecs... is there some kind of euphoria spreading in the forum or just immaturity?

I think yes. The only thing bothering is the circular iron shield boss. This is something that appeared among the Przeworsk culture in modern day Poland, not in Denmark... At least until the Roman era. I don't know if we should restrict the evidences to material found in Jutland or not.

Borremose "fortress" Iron age Jutland village of Hodde Celtic weapons: Bones weapons: Wooden weapons: One-edged swords: Celtic like spearheads: Battle-scene: