Atrik

I agree, also would be better if you could choose to still make the attack-move by holding the two keys in the same time instead (call to arm and attack-move).

I found it assigned to "Alt" by default. Didn't knew about it. Thanks.

Yes, but could be a greater loot for dismantling buildings that would also require you to be owner in the first place.

Like the sound of it. Maybe something like this would also introduce sacking buildings you've just captured: loot for buildings and a little worker time.

Look like you currently have "compo mode" setting. UI: In this (not default) mode, the % (on your picture, 5 for females) doesn't reset if you toggle (∞) the unit. Trainer: (on your picture) Will still work like you would expect: Train females, until further input from you. Example of how to use: Say you start the game and want to switch all production to slingers (either to defend a rush or to lead a assault on some woodline). Simply toggle-on slinger. Once done (you have sufficient amount of slingers) you can toggle off and it will resume the composition training. If you reset to the default mode in settings "spam mode" (We need to find better settings name lol): Then you will either see only ∞ or the %, And the value will be forgotten when you toggle-on a unit. Default settings, you will only see XX% or ∞ But more clicks if you like to change trainer inputs often. Maximum batch size can be found in the trainer context menu along the reserves. Here 12. Can change value with mouse-wheel.

Can you explain this ? Uses and name please?

What do you mean?

I was wondering why so little players use theses hotkeys in vanilla game. I find them very useful. "Call to arms" Type: Movement modifier hotkey => All selected military units individually find the nearest drop-site to deposit resources then will make a attack-move on clicked location. "Attack Move (Unit Only)" Type: Movement modifier hotkey => Will ignore capturing buildings on path to clicked location. I use this as default attack-move (Ctrl) instead. Underrated?

Definitively picking up on rangedoverlay. Very cool. Thanks @Yekaterina.

Are you looking to open a debate about making mandatory to throttle fps? Ok now this no-mod spirit look very alike a kind of religious thing.

Very OP features, all hosts would love these. Very smart idea to have some jitsi link visible by only the team.

Interesting. And you had only 2 productions buildings to manage. The edge it probably provides is expected to noticeably grows with the number of buildings. Your sample looks serious enough for this kind of experiment but very surprised from the results. Since you don't have much edge cases in your boom in these experiments (and that you train only 1 type of unit and you don't actively manage production variables), you could have exactly the same performances if you used the resize queue mod I cited earlier. (Will do the exact same thing: training batch using same forumla and at the same moment).

I think we were discussing gui features, for example I don't think you consider formations macros, but it's running much more code then something that will resize batch size. My guess is that you'd want the gui to features to be alike the "Age Of" and stay as is. This would be a very reasonable opinion tbh. Still the gui could have some better feature for managing production. I used to play with just a modified boongui overlay. I had nothing auto, but I could see and select idle buildings very fast, and set the batches manually, it was also already solving my issue with having to find the building for which auto-queue broke. I'm sure for example implementing in vanilla idle building icon like the idle units could still look useful for players with your UI preferences.

You can already do that in progui by enabling vanilla auto-queue in a barrack. It will still resize the batch if the trainer is on, and remember to train that unit while it can. If you do this in 2 barracks and have 5, the 3 without auto-queue enable will probably be enough balance to your compo. Also misquoted, I didn't say anything sounding with "an artificial intelligent trainer", I was going to express that at the contrary progui solve this: by being not intelligent and use user inputs on the panel. How would you solve this otherwise anyway? This is why I repeated a few times that, in my experience, it's harder then one can think to do a resizable auto-queue in vanilla version, because if you don't control it, it's a unplayable nightmare. The experiment with the mod I did to resize auto-queue proves the point, where barracks that consume all wood or even too much of your stone can be frustrating. You want to be able to put on hold everything or define the amount of resource not to consume, hence progui panel. This is what I mean by limitations that Mentula's proposal would bring. You could always do an algorithm to define batch size accounting for what the player will need for other means but then it's actually "more auto" then progui.

I'll support any proposals enhancing vanilla training or production management. Already did a mod that resize auto-queue. This tiny mod face limitations and they would be same with your proposal. These limitations are addressed in proGUI to actually have MORE control, and is THE idea of proGUI. You don't understand proGUI, what makes it fun is that you have production controllable by dedicated panel. Very obviously you indeed never run it once .

(my) TLDR: you can choose to use or not use the mod. Anybody is also free to forbid using the mod from their game (very lame, but whatever). In this topic, a few players and myself have expressed that this queuing system can improve their game experience, and objections seems to always come from players that observed but didn't gave any try to the mod. It's very reasonable to have playing habits, I myself can't get used to some mods. I always appreciated the availability of all mods, including yours @Mentula and it felt good to be able to pick the ones working for me, dropping the ones that wasn't... Never felt any urge to forbid the ones I don't use even if they could provide an edge if used correctly. They are all reasonable because they are clearly not intended cheats, but expression of a players creativity to have a better game. I can only conclude that the availability of the mod to players, is positive.

Sorry @seeh I don't think proGUI is causing this.

Was trying to make the same point, but then isn't that a desirable thing? I understand the competitive thing, players can always say they don't play with a opponent with this mod. So nobody offense nobody. It would just be nearly as lame as banning autociv because one don't use the hotkeys and don't want to assume the relative deteriorated game-play. Of course there are pitfalls, but proGUI is kinda tested now and nobody has been worst off, I guess if you found a opponent that challenge your skills with his skills (even if it's with another GUI then yours) you probably yourself got less bored of your supremacy? I agree that autociv hotkeys are more obvious then proGUI features, but it's hard to delimit categories. I would argue native auto-queue should at least put itself on hold instead of breaking, or ceil batch size accounting pop limit. Less, but still very obvious to me. Even with theses features, I'll still want to use proGUI because the composition thing is cool. But it might make this mod look less fancy to players that built habits.

Yes sorry, however I picked up on this: I know you have a constructive spirit, so please don't think I'm too much on the defensive here. Interesting, but maybe a player that reach full pop at min 17 already isn't working very well with batch size or managing idle building in general. A single example could also be biased. However I think nothing in the vanilla game helps to identify idle buildings easily. Thus my suggestion in previous post too, to at least have some visibility on idle buildings and/or hotkeys in vanilla game would be cool already. ... I guess the goal is to express opinions.. "a) we all use proGUI" Some people can just not use it, I don't see why you added this one. As mentioned by @rossenburg and myself previously, we know it's not the best fit for every player. "b) some of us use it, some others don't" As now, I even made put up the effort for it to be in the mod downloader, so that everyone can try it, as some players may find value in it. It's probably cool like this, everybody is happy, if you want it you get it under 5 sec, if you don't want it, you don't do nothing. "c) the proGUI queuing system becomes part of 0 A.D. vanilla" Probably the dev team won't consider it and for good reasons, as I expressed you have a new layer of "concepts" to add, like resources that can't be consumed (reserves in proGUI) .... "My intent is to face a problem and find a solution, leveraging our rationality at best." I don't know... I still don't understand what problem, I'm hearing some push-backs since I posted a POC in here. I though this was because of my bad communication. I understand you will support the existence of the project, but you are still framing it's somehow threatening or at least causing troubles (definition of a problem). So what is the problem? @Mentula you know a player that would use FieldManager would have a superior food income per field. However you probably concluded that this wasn't a necessary feature that all must have, either by using the mod, nor by integrating it in vanilla. It's also cool to add some mods as you learn the game, you have new things to try out, understand, experiment with.

@Mentula I was thinking about this post I feel you made a little without that much proofs on your claims, so It does feel unfair to me. I'll assume one of the players you observed and concluded was kinda heavily boosted by eco with the mod would be me (there aren't hundreds of players using proGUI). Firstly you probably noticed that I usually build few farms more then average (12-14), and very slightly go for more women's too. This is often part of a deliberate strategy to be able to relief any ally that will lose farms, or to have extra safety myself. This, when working, leads to higher eco score ofc, you send ~10 units less on front-line, but you can instantly contribute to any front. So maybe you didn't take this into account. I'll still take myself as an example, also so I don't need to cite names in this topic since it's a (very unproven) accusation of unfairness. But I don't feel like I have any tremendous boom advantage. I even often play in consequence of not being the fastest with a defensive strategy. I don't play 1v1, but here I have one from yesterday where I boomed slower then my duelist, but won at the end. metadata.jsoncommands.txt I don't take anything you say like an personal attack, I hope you won't too if I underline that you made this post poorly informed on what you wanted to criticize. I'll agree on Non-negligible advantage but not because it lifts that much the eco of the player. From my observations, players using the mod benefit more then Ɛ in eco from it, in late game, where other players training gets messy, while with proGUI queue stay mostly neat. Also not costing them unnecessary attention "finding the barrack with the auto-queue that' just broke when you get the warning message" . Beside the mod also provide manual solutions to the problem cited above. Displaying (for quick-select) groups of idles buildings. Provide a shortcut to filter only idle buildings from current selection. I would be curious to hear if anyone really enjoy "finding the barrack with the auto-queue that' just broke, when you get the warning message", this was frustrating me, and I'm glad I have 3 tools for it. Hotkey, Idle building icons, and auto-queue that don't break at all. I'm not sure the trainer should be in vanilla game or anything (because of the added complexity of the GUI, not because it's unfair). But yet one of the two manual feature above couldn't hurt, I guess. Not sure what people want or if they know it themselves.

@Mentula, Firstly I'll want to thank you for this opportunity to clear this topic and maybe address common objections/misconceptions, that players who haven't tried it may have. I think a lot of things are missing from your analysis. Firstly, I'll summarize what the mod does since it's critical to understand why would any player benefit in skill level with it: ProGUI is a fork of BoonGUI with the right panel modified to display stats more focused on players rather then observers. It also has a trainer panel (probably the most criticized feature) that simply allow you to queue units instead of using the building panel. This panel can be used to plan army composition. Other then queuing units in barracks (through using another panel) it doesn't do eco. If you have no food for native auto-queue, it breaks. If you have no food with proGUI trainer, no units are trained. The only difference is that I have a lazy and more interesting way to plan army compo, and other productions. It looks like a "bot" because you don't see the queue, but really it's just smarter auto-queue with a dedicated panel to manage it. A good deal of clicks too: this is also maybe something you know if you don't play with it, but actually if you're not a noob, you'll want to manage actively the panel. It's fewer clicks still for sure, but the mod has no game plan ofc. It's a tool to achieve your plan. You can find satisfying to be able to think "I want 70% ranged units" and get 70% ranged, and have units training accordingly as some may die to maintain the ratio I can change at all time, if for instance I need to counter some cav with pikes. If I need wood for a building, I can simply plan it in the panel for it to not consume the desired amount. This is better then having native auto-queue consuming uncontrollably resources, but obviously, it requires some level of planing. => If you don't know how to eco, it's not going to do magic for you, so why is this mod so controversial? Because it calculate for you the batch sizes and queue it? Instead I have my own personal opinion that I'll develop below. Totally OP: So does it provide an edge? If the mod is just queuing brainlessly units how could it provide any significant advantage? Try to imagine: Imagine you'll have to micro every gatherer to return to drop-site every time they are full capacity, you can maybe queue a few dozens orders but it's still takes your attention. Attention you'll place elsewhere otherwise. Well you'll be noober, and the game would feel less rewarding. => Same is true when having to queue units while you are in critical fight. Not particularly rewarding, leading to poor fight management, can't progress in skill game if you're not clicking faster, can't even spend your time enjoying/managing the fight you prepared, half of the time, for 15min! So yes, if you're not liking this very situation, this trainer feature can have your back. You can also have it off while booming and enable it when you need to focus on something else, also without the worry that half of your barracks are being idles while one of them has 20 units funded and queued. Not useful to everyone: I don't think all players would be better using this mod feature, some players are just good in being in the flow of managing every single resource they consume, and calculating batch size on their own. They rarely use native auto-queue for this reason anyway. But they could still end up wanting the mod for instance for the idle units or building panel. By default the mod has everything off, you can activated the ones you think feel comfortable using trough your game. Game more enjoyable for me: before having this features, I tended to be bored at a point in game, where I would stop putting the necessary effort to repopulate. Now, I even tend to want to continue playing a lost game, just because late game is actually the fun part, and that things I was finding unrewarding aren't there no more. Just personal experience. Because of this simple fact, It would be very difficult to convince me that proGUI isn't doing good, as a humble nub mod as it is. Game more enjoyable for allies: having more attention to give to my allies and game situation, I can be more useful in team game. Things I do less if I'm busy calculating a batch size. I also like the tribute feature that would send any floating resource (I can define what's the threshold of "floating" ofc). A few simple rules to define sending resource and that makes your allies much more resilient. Game much worse for opponents? Still haven't heard any convincing argument for this one, beside that a user generally have better eco curve. By the way a common feedback I got by all users that truly tried it was : "I boom slower with it". The better eco also mostly comes once you use your new free time efficiently. Simpsons paradox of OPness / ProGUI for ProPlayers: I myself have more than a thousand games even if I've been here for less long then you @Mentula. Most players that I know that are using proGUI and use the most advanced feature like the trainer are very OP players already, and predictably, they didn't become unbeatable overnight, barely noticeable improvement if at all when they start using it. So once more, I'm not that convinced it provide any "Unfair advantage". Powerful users doing powerful things with a (call it powerful) UI is just cool.

Ok... I guess I'll accept that a re-balancing would kinda make disappear the justifications for a stance to be able to attack ranged units. Sounds reasonable.

True, the test I did with NoobDude WAS emulating the sniping of 1 unit attacking 1 unit automatically. I can show you if interested. I am not sure it's necessary to have a feature doing perfect sniping, If units would attack individually the closest enemy (matching the criteria) to themselves, this would already naturally spread the unit focus. I insisted this was a illustrative example, demonstrating that "sniping" wouldn't require any bots or scripts, but would look like a very basic amendment, if ever it was considered like a desirable feature.

I don't think this is a good approach btw, I'll rather prefer having it managed by a stance of something. Just using this to demonstrate that it would be so simple to do it.

I get your point. But I stand that it is very reasonable to think of a stance or hotkey that would save players from having to click 100 times, to achieve the same as this example of amendment to unit_action.js "attack-move" : else if (Engine.HotkeyIsPressed("session.attackWeakUnits")) targetClasses = { "attack": ["Ranged", "Support"] }; 2 Lines of code => Hotkey to do "Auto-sniping" available in vanilla 0ad to everyone. I guess the idea is setting some people uncomfortable because the current meta is sniping, and we all tend to be attached to our playing habits. But metas evolve as the game does, so I think this is worth talking about.