Sundiata

Some nice narration from a new player getting to know the game. Same guy as the video Coworotel posted 2 messages up.

Normally the mane never hinders the rider. It's difficult to explain, but it's not really a thing you ever worry about when riding. It never obstructs vision. Unless you're riding something like an Andalusian with ornately long manes, then yes, maybe it's an issue if your spear get's tangled in that. I did randomly read somewhere that manes were sometimes trimmed for that reason... The main thing I can think of is with heavily armored horses like the cataphracts, the manes might be cut (slightly helps prevent overheating when the neck is covered, I assume), but you wouldn't see the manes in that case anyway. Manes were also sometimes pleated, for decoration/neatness. About the types of manes, it's true that some breeds have much more bushy manes, especially the more archaic types, I believe (Celtic horses maybe?). I'll try to make a few variations for the mane-textures soon (trimmed, cropped, pleated).

Quite frankly, I think the current icon of a pick axe is close enough to the Roman Dolabra, which was, among other things, used for mining and was part of the legionary's kit used for digging trenches and such. The current icon is clear and unambiguous. @Anaxandridas ho Skandiates Useful contributions to the game are always welcome, but you seem to have some difficulty grasping a few things. First of, we are all volunteers, and individuals will pretty much work on what they want to work. Especially if they're not team members. Nobody is paying anyone's bills here. There's a million and one things the team members are pre-occupied with, and they're horribly short-staffed as well. Wow is the main developer of Delenda Est, a total conversion mod, and is dealing with a plate full himself. I honestly chuckled at his response, but it's no less a genuine suggestion. People are drowning in work as it is. The pick-axe isn't a priority (it's not even wrong). But nobody is stopping you from making your own version if you want to. If you're an Antiquity expert, you should relish in the opportunity of educating us plebs, but some of your responses to quite a number of individuals who simply asked questions or sources have been nothing less than arrogant, and you become borderline belligerent and unnecessarily personal in some of your posts as well. I'm not attacking your expertise, but it's a bit difficult to take an anonymous person serious when their response to anyone who questions them is basically: "who is the expert here? Huh? You or me?" And when confronted with conflicting views from other (non-anonymous) experts, you just dismiss them. In another discussion, Lion.Kanzen warned you that you will be ignored if you insist on being like that. It's up to you, if you want to prove him right or not. I'm honestly curious about your modeling work, you clearly know your Greek, and I sincerely hope that you can become/continue to be a valuable contributer to the game. I just hope that you take my words serious, and try to work on your communication skills. There's no need for aggression (active or passive).

I should really get to work on more serious things... Anyway, a quick concept update: some lazy texturing using Carthage texture pack. One day, my sweet Sabaeans.... One day...

Interesting remark... I have no doubt that natural manes were the norm, in general terms, but since you bring it up, quite a number of depictions of horses with roached/hogged/cropped manes, that stand up right, exist from Antiquity. A very small number of horses have naturally upright manes (comparable to those of przewalski's and zebra). Actually wouldn't be bad for some of the Greco-Roman and Achaemenid elite cav...

Ooooh, Kushite archers needs this as well! Nice... I think they used the poison of vipers...

@Diatryma, The Sabaean Temple of Barran, near Ma'rib, is colloquially known as the Throne of Bilqis (Bilqis is the Arabic name for the Queen of Sheba). I got a little carried away and modeled a quick tentative reconstruction. 0AD concept art for a new Sabaean faction, in a few years time Mmmm, Sabaeans...

I'm assuming you mean how do the "Black Hebrews" look like? Keep in mind they shouldn't be conflated with the "Black Hebrew Israelites", an extreme fringe group of Afro Americans that aren't recognized as Jews by the greater Jewish community. The Ethiopian Jews on the other hand are a genuine Afro-Semitic population of an ancient stock, and recognized as such by the world's Jewish community. They're called Beta Israel, but are also referred with the derogative "falasha" or falash mura" There's a number of differing theories about how they got there, all quite plausible. There's the tradition (national narrative) that says they come from the Israelite companions of Menelik I, the first Solomonic ruler of Ethiopia, son of Queen Makeda of Sheba and King Solomon. Another tradition claims that they descend from the tribe of Dan escaping various destruction events in ancient Israel. Another tradition states that they descend from a Jewish community at Elephantine on the border of Lower Nubia in South Egypt, who escaped the campaigns of Psamtik I or II, passing through Kush and entering Ethiopia. There was actually a synagogue on Elephantine... Other Jews are said to have been settled on the border of Lower Nubia during the Ptolemaic period as well, said to be allies of Cleopatra, and fled into Kush, and then Ethiopia during the Roman conquest of Egypt. There's also an undeniable relation to the Yemeni Jews. A number of obscure Jewish Kingdoms existed in ancient Ethiopia (see testimony of Eldad the Danite), and at least some of the Ethiopians that converted to Christianity in the 4th century were originally Jewish. Some of the Ethiopian Jews were medieval Christians who converted back to Judaism, so it gets really complicated. They're not homogenous, and they're also closely related to other, Christian Semitic populations of Ethiopia like the Amhara and Tigrinya. After the overthrow of Haile Selassie I, the Ethiopian Jews started facing a lot more persecution and marginalisation under the communist Derg regime, and they emigrated to Israel en masse, during several waves, aided by Israel (Operation Moses and Operation Solomon). Currently more than 130.000 Ethiopian Jews live in Israel as naturalized citizens, virtually the entire population... Anyway, this is what they look like Beta Israel, the black Jews of Ethiopia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_Israel If you're interested in black Jews, there's also the extraordinary claim of Jewish descend from the Lemba people of South Africa and Zimbabwe. Genetic studies actually confirmed Middle Eastern ancestry among a significant portion of the population. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemba_people

They are indeed... The rise of the Mayans begins just after the collapse of Mycenaean Greece, but predates the advent of the archaic period, at 1000 BC, and continues into the classical and Hellenistic periods... Monumental architectures starts around 500BC in the mid-Pre Classic period, the classic period starts around 250 AD and continues to 900 AD. But the last independent Maya city didn't fall until 1697! They have a loooong history... @Wesley You also have to keep in mind that all the civilizations currently in vanilla are interconnected. They might not all have faced each other in battle, but at least they all sort of knew about each other and traded either directly, or indirectly. Romans and Chinese for example knew about each other, if only vaguely.

In terms of territory, both of those maps depict the Aksumite empire at it's height during the 6th century AD. The Kingdom of Saba is not known to have ever exerted political influence in East Africa. The Biblical Kingdom of Sheba is tentatively identified with the Kingdom of Saba, but Ethiopia has a much stronger national narrative claiming to be the seat of the ancient kingdom, and currently possessing the Ark of the Covenant, housed in Axum. Personally, I think the history is too obscured, intertwined and semi-mythical to try to draw absolute conclusions. I remember reading about Sabaean inscriptions from that altar in Ethiopia explicitly mentioning the "red Sabaeans" and the "black Hebrews" essentially living in the same place. The black Hebrews here refers to the Ethiopian Jews (Beta Israel/Falasha), who are thought to have established themselves in Ethiopia around this time. It's all a bit fuzzy..

The Sabaean Kingdom or the Kingdom of Saba was a South Arabian (Yemeni) kingdom that flourished from the 8th century BC (or earlier) to the 3rd century AD, with a capital city at Ma'rib. They were an extraordinary people and another one of my personal favourites. They were master masons, built some of the world's first proper high rise apartments, were engineering experts (ma'rib dam) and rich from the Indian Ocean and Red Sea trade in incense and myrrh among other things. They actually fought a war with Rome, with an unclear outcome, at the same time that the Romans were fighting a war with the Kushites in the first century BC. They had a very strong African connection, and explicitly Sabaean artefacts, inscriptions and architecture are known in Eritrea and Ethiopia, during the time of the African Kingdom of D'mt. It has been thought in the past that D'mt was an offshoot of the Sabaeans, but these ideas are being abandoned. Sabaean influence is undeniable though. African and South Arabian populations mixed in Ethiopia during the 1st millennium BC. During the later Ethiopian/Eritrean Aksumite Empire, the same people that destroyed the Kushites, the Aksumites actually also conquered South Arabia, then under Himyarite hegemony, (early 6th century AD), including Saba, and even attempted to conquer Mecca using war-elephants, but failed. So there's a lot of back and forth, that has been going on for thousands of years. Even today, Eritrea is absorbing the bulk of the refugees from the war in Yemen, and in the past, Ethiopians, Eritreans and Djiboutis worked in Yemen in considerable numbers. They're all distantly/vaguely related, somehow. To be honest, I want Sabaeans more than I want Garamantes, lol In a perfect world, it would be like this: Early Arabs (north and south): Nabataeans (Northern Arabia) Sabaeans (South Arabia) Proto Berbers (West and East): Numidians (North Algeria/Tunisia) Garamantes (Fezzan/South Libya) Sabaeans, mmmmm.... Temple of Awwam at Ma'rib: Sabaean script: Sabaean bronze: Libation altar: Incense burner Traditional Yemeni architecture, a tradition dating back to the BC period: Examples of explicit Sabaean influence in Ethiopia: A Sabaean altar in a temple to Almaqah, the Sabaean supreme god, in Tgray, Ethiopia. Sabaean inscriptions clearly visible: Sabaean inscriptions from the temple at Yeha, Tigray, Ethiopia. Yeha is thought to have been the capital city of the Kingdom of D'mt:

@Wesley I definitely think the Qanat should be an important aspect of this civ. But not a wonder. I would love for the game to be able to determine fertile and non-fertile lands on maps, preferably with a gradient (0-100% fertility). Maybe it could be tied to the current tile system for specific ground textures. Basically deserts would be non fertile, and green zones fertile. Then civs like the Garamantes, but also Persians, Ptolemies, Kushites and Seleucids would have special advantages by being able to farm in the desert using these types of qanat systems (or Saqiyas). Could add nice biome-based strategies. Garamantes had some "monumental" architecture. Nothing too impressive, but there's still suitable candidates for wonders. Particularly the Al Hatia tombs at Germa: The wonder could just be a small collection of these things? A better example of monumental architecture is the central temple of Germa (GER001.3), but that should obviously serve as the reference for the temple... Examples of Greek influence, (faux Ionian and Corinthian capitals): This structure, the mausoleum at Qasr Watwat, could easily function as the Iberian venerated statue in-game: Some examples of domestic architecture (homes/workshops). Some of it was multistoried...: Elite: Lower class: " "Batiment Garamantique fouille a Saniat Jibril par Daniels" Germa (or Garama), and other Garamantian sites: "Site-urbain-de-Qasr-bin-Dougba": Germa, the capital: Garamantian chariots: People: A skirmisher armed with javelins and a round shield (typical Libyan feathers in hair?) Interesting stuff: https://historum.com/threads/the-kingdom-of-the-garamantians.118859/#lg=_xfUid-9-1550497430&slide=0 https://www2.le.ac.uk/offices/press/press-releases/2011/november/castles-in-the-desert-satellites-reveal-lost-cities-of-libya https://www.world-archaeology.com/features/garamantes-libya/ https://www.livius.org/articles/place/garamantes/

How interesting... Are you sure those papers weren't about Southern African elands? We really can't add something like that without proper primary sources. But they do seem to be quite docile indeed... I only see donkeys there... Donkeys were widespread in the Sahara. I think they even originate from there.

@Wesley, the Garamantes are actually on my personal shortlist for another African civilization. References would be tremendously challenging though. But not impossible... We start talking about Garamantes and start sharing references from the 10th message in this thread: They were actually first suggested back in 2011: There's a lot more than 5 small cities. At least 8 important towns/cities and over a hundred fortress settlements! Probably hundreds of more smaller and/or as of yet undiscovered/unexcavated settlements... There was even a Roman style bath house and Hellenistic influenced cut stone temple in Germa as well as elaborate monumental tombs with Hellenistic/Coastal North African influences. And they were fully literate as well! https://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2011/11/111111-sahara-libya-lost-civilization-science-satellites/ I'm not sure where you got that from? African Elands did indeed exist and were hunted by Saharan people, but I've never seen anything about domestication, let alone it being used as a draft animal. Perhaps a misinterpretation of crude cave paintings of horse drawn chariots? There were indeed still a few lakes so they should be able to fish, maybe transport troops, but not much more than that. But the whales date to more than 40 million years ago... It's a little bit beyond our timeframe Exactly... Are you familiar with Dhar Tichitt (and Dhar Walata and Dhar Nema) in the West African Sahara? More than 500 stone settlements dating from c. 2000 BC to 300 BC. Early agro-pastoralists. They were ancestral to the Soninke people, who later went on the found the Ghana Empire (modern day Mali/Mauritania) in the early medieval period.

@Wesley “Dr” Clyde Winters is a fraudulent piece of garbage. Black Supremacist trash. Worthless scum… He has no academic expertise in ancient languages whatsoever. Some of his writings include: The Ancient Celts and Vikings were Black People The Sumerians were Black The Black Greeks The Blacks of China's First Civilization: The Xia Ancient African Kings of India African Empires in Ancient America (2013) The Ancient Black Civilizations of Asia (2013) Atlantis in Mexico: The Mande Discovery of America (2013) Meroitic Writing and Literature (2013) He also claims that the ancient inhabitants of Atlantis, as well as King James I of England were black... In addition to Meroitic, he also claims to have deciphered: Indus (Harappan) script Sumerian Olmec script Clyde Winters is a lier and a fraud. Nothing he writes is peer reviewed. The precursors of the Meroitic language have been spoken for thousands of years before Buddhism even existed. It's mostly Nilo-Saharan, evolving out of Proto-Nilo-Saharan with Afro Asiatic influences, and has nothing to do with Gandhara… If you want to learn about Meroitic, I suggest looking up the works of Dr. Claude Rilly, "Doctor in Egyptology and linguistics, and director of the French archaeological mission of Sedeinga (SEDAU), Co-editor of the Meroitic Newsletters, Member of the board of the International Society for Nubian Studies and of the Sudan Archaeological Research Society, he is also research fellow at the CNRS" https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/the-meroitic-language-and-writing-system/D1534C93DCCA955D82E0594CE92598FC Clyde Winters on the other hand is a major source of misinformation. A very toxic individual. A disrupter. One of many ugly stains on the internet. He makes a living out of duping gullible people of African decent. I have come across his garbage on numerous occasions, and I shudder every time. Basically I hate him… This website is dedicated to debunking individuals like him: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Clyde_Winters

As wow says, It's the same for everyone, so it doesn't affect gameplay. Anyway, if ranged units spread fire, this would be even less of a thing to think about.

Well, to be fair, it would probably have sounded a lot better in French. I actually thought it was an interesting insight into some of the bottlenecks, that non-programmers like myself have difficulty understanding. Thanks @vladislavbelov. By the way, I never saw this video from Capitole du Libre before... Of course I liked the part where you talk about Kush I liked @stanislas69 part as well. Awkward video thumbnail...

@Lion.Kanzen where art thou? I miss your spanglish... The man seems to be MIA since January...

If they randomly target 1 out 10 of the nearest units (in range), fire would automatically be spread across the 10 nearest units, not just the hero in front, who is only 1/10th of the selection. If 100 archers are in range to fire on an enemy group of 9 units and a dancing hero in front, the hero would only receive 1 out of ten arrows. Which means 10 arrows target the hero, and the other 90 arrows target the 9 other units within range, but behind the hero.

Ranged units should randomly pick 1 out of the 10 nearest enemy units to attack. This will literally solve the issue and we'll have more organic ranged combat as well. Currently ranged units always target the nearest unit. That's the core of the problem. They should spread fire.

@Gurken Khan, Yeah it was just really weird... And it's pretty common apparently, and has been upsetting to more than a few people (I saw some pages full of scolding tirades against admins casually blocking thousands of IP addresses) But then I realized in my case it really wasn't a random dragnet, but actually personal, and I was like: The guy replied again, by the way. First he sort of apologized to me for his heavy handed warning, but his second message still kind of implies that he thinks I did it. He told me not to worry about it though, because it was "some time ago", as if he "forgives" me for my passed transgressions... what an a__ hole...

I love all of that! Especially number 1 has always seemed like a no-brainer to me. Having small icons of crossed swords to indicate battle-events where more than 100 units died over x amount of minutes could also be a nice extra.

@feneur, the dancing thing is indeed quite a disruptive part of many MP matches. It reduces the overall strategy of the game in favor of obsessive compulsive unit micro. It's something that many people have been complaining about for a while. Not an easy fix, surely, but definitely worth the attention. I don't know to what extent @borg-'s mod addresses this issue?

I think the current way 0AD handles garrisoning units in towers is really great, and I also use it for the same reasons as you do. My question is about the default arrows that don't add population. I'm not necessarily opposed to it though. There's just a logical flaw in ungarrisoned towers and fortresses firing arrows, implying someone's home, yet still loosing it to gaia when the CC falls because of the lack of a territory root. Just exploring possibilities.

@Bigtiger Oh man, that looks so good... These biomes will really help spruce up 0AD's maps!