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I propose we change the "Persians" in the game to "Achaemenids" to differentiate from other Persian empires (one of the likely civs for 'Empires Besieged' would be the Sasanians, another Persian empire). This would entail a lot of changes under the hood, but mainly to just XML files and some jsons, file name changes, etc. I could take care of the pull request for it. Just trying to gauge from the group if anyone would have any objections. This is in the Development forum due to it requiring a large Pull Request to change it (again, a PR I'm willing to personally take responsibility for).

Desaturated version of the range dirt:

This is an absurd comparison and you know it. On one hand, the Colossus of Rhodes fell due to an earthquake, and the Rhodians refused to rebuild it because of an oracle. On the other hand, the overgrowth of a kurgan with grass is a natural process that occurs in all cases if the monument is not maintained several times a year. In your example, the Colossus of Rhodes is completely destroyed. In the case of the kurgan modeled with grass covering it, it is still functional. We are comparing a natural disaster with an ordinary process. Furthermore a process that was difficult to stop. A kurgan is not something similar to a Greek monument. First of all, this stone covering is not found on all kurgans. Multiple kurgans are simply covered with clumps of earth. One should not assume that it was standard practice to cover a kurgan with a stone shell. In fact, this is most common in certain regions. But even when vegetation had overgrown the gravel surface, this was a common occurrence in the Scythian landscape. Most of the kurgan mounds still standing were in this condition. In any case, I’m not opposed to using a gravel surface. I also think it will look better. Once again, I’m criticizing a specific line of reasoning.

The problem is that Very Easy and Easy should indeed be for kids, elders, and anyone who is in it for history, graphics, whatever, but just doesn't want to get rushed in 10 or 15 mins. Sandbox is not the solution because apparently not much happens, and some time ago someone said “the jump between Sandbox and Very Easy is too big”. So, it does seem that an extra easy level is needed, combined with that Normal shouldn’t be "for players having reached some intermediate playing level", or "about the level a somewhat competent player can beat consistently after 1-3 tries". Competent for 0 A.D. then? And measured by whom? Normal is not this in RTS, there's always certain implied equivalence between games, and this is a known issue, it has been brought up, I remember someone saying that it's the early attacks that get the newbies. And, again, the game states "the default AI level is quite challenging for new players", something I've never seen in any game before, a completely artificial situation, one shifts labels and no such thing happens, no clarification needed, there shouldn't be one in the first place. I don't understand the need to tell people that never had any problem in Normal/Medium in other RTS to stay in Easy or Very Easy until they git gud, and leave without a reasonable challenge those who might be below that level. Normal is so not normal that training times are around 3 times faster when compared to basic units and techs from StarCraft 2 in Brutal, which is ludicrous. I don't think most people wanting to explore the game in general would find that enjoyable. I think I’ve said it already: default options should be friendly for beginners, the vast majority of which will be more (or only) interested in SP. This paragraph might seem a bit offtopic, but I’ll connect everything with the difficulty levels. As known, this game caters too much to PvP: clickiness, rushes and tryharding have priority over strategy, tactics, and city-building. When someone complains, they have been told they want “a certain game experience that this project doesn't cater to”. There are many problems with that if the idea is to grow the game. Over 90% of gamers care only about SP (AoE numbers, similar for most). On the AoE forum, someone asks “why do developers struggle to design good RTS?”, and someone gives 7 points: half baked single player campaign, missing skirmish mode, missing editor tools, cliche soundtrack, making only multiplayer focused game, blatantly copying other games in genre and cheating AI. For 0 A.D., I think the MP issue is among the most blatant ones (not to mention the lack of a proper campaign, but I think other things should be fixed before that). It cannot be that if some tech is not optimal for MP then there are proposals to remove it. As someone said, they are there for SP, and that’s not a minor thing, at all. Just ignore the icon. Or better, propose how to make it interesting also for MP. Of course, there’ll be people saying “these changes are not part of the proposal and style that 0 A.D. seeks”, which doesn’t tend to be true if one actually reads the 0 A.D. Vision Document. Coming back to difficulty levels, maybe the AI is hard to code, but, as mentioned, people don’t like cheating AI (or advantages). I wonder if those gathering rate and trade gain modifications can be removed (except maybe on the hardest levels, if needed for a challenge), and the AI to be about when to attack, army sizes, defenses, and how efficiently other things are handled (techs, eco, etc). If Easy is the usual Medium, then that should be Normal, Very Easy should be Easy, and the apparent gap with Sandbox could be filled with a new Very Easy, and maybe another Extremely Easy, since the now nameless hardest level could acquire an Extremely Hard label. Maybe research, training and building rates should be independent speed options, and could be labelled as Normal 4x or 3x present times, some name for a possible 2x, and a Competitive 1x present times, to be used in PvP as it stands now. Regarding the speed of the game in general, I think barely slower would be more attractive to most, for example a Normal game speed of 0.8x the present one, making a Competitive 1.25x the present 1x, and 2.5x would be the present 2x Insane. To simplify things, “Presets” could be used, the "Normal" one selecting all Normal options, and the same with “Competitive”. All this not only makes the game more palatable for new players that will try things with default Normal settings, but also doesn’t change absolutely anything as things stand now if the Competitive Preset is selected. Besides, I think there's a way to incentivise people to play with Competitive Presets, with the hope that then they’ll have a go at MP (having more players in general should increase the ones going for MP anyway), and that is with Achievements. They are fun and addictive to get, and are good content for SP, giving objectives to be achieved in many possible ways. Maybe accounts or profiles would need to be introduced, so under a given one all played games would count for the Achievements. Each Achievement would be some nice icon, which would get decorated with background wings and lightning bolts (I have an idea to model them on some Roman scutum emblems) if obtained for harder difficulties and speed combinations, respectively, possibly handled with different Presets.

What we are discussing is a considerable change in gameplay, but I believe it coud be a quite interesting feature to stimulate more complex strategies than "just" booming or turtling. Frankly, the name "storehouse" somehow implies that goods are stored there. When the storage capacity is exceeded, no further goods can be accepted. Processing of goods (to invest into new buildings, techs or train units) can acutally only be done from your civ's "accoun"t (the to status bar on the screeen). Goods can be added onyl if they are delivered to a CC or fortress. If we store stuff in storehouses, capturing should provide the stored goods to the new owner. If you destroy them, you get the standard loot only. Just, storing goods in a storehouse is great - but you need to retrieve them and add them to your civ's account. this is true both for your own storehouses and the ones captured, i.e. in any case you would need to send some transport to forward the goods to your nearest CC or fortress - and protect them from attacks. Traders could be used for that initially, but later on we can introduce specialized transport modes: civilians/slaves, donkeys/oxen, horse carts depending on the phase. Attacking the transporters would yield the transported goods to your account (very much like traders currently).

Maybe storehouses (or other dropsites, besides civic centers), should have a resource holding limit. So when a unit drops off at a dropsite, it stores it there, but it has a limit. You couldn't use the resources in the dropsite, but you would have to transport it to a civic center. Once it gets to a civic center, it goes to the bar at the top of the screen. There could be a wagon unit or some transport unit that transports (maybe 100 at a time) resources to your civic. It would be a like a usb hub, you have multiple devices plugged in, but it has to get to your computer to use it. The dropsite could also have a range, any structures in that range use the dropsites resources first, then the ones on the top of the screen (or civic center), then it wouldn't be like a usb hub as much

Triumph Arch and Vesta temple:

I don't think this is a problem to have various designs, and I believe the proposal of @wowgetoffyourcellphone is justified. We need to have a flexible concept, sometimes we'll want to represent a people or a civilization from a specific period, sometimes a nation, sometimes an empire, and sometimes a dynasty. We just need to be clear about it and explain it well in the civ's design. Edit: And it’s really good to finally start thinking about what comes next. I felt like this 'Empires Besieged' expansion was constantly being put off until tomorrow, and that people were refusing to give it any thought. It’s clear that not thinking about it creates problems for the expansion’s design, and that we really need to lay the groundwork now, despite the lack of leadership.

Well, since there's Han and Mauryans and not just Chinese and Indians, it seems to me this has been the path the game has been taking for a while, whenever possible (for Britons, Germans and Iberians is a bit more complicated but maybe at some point enough information will be gathered to instead have at least a couple of representative tribes from each). Sasanians and Parthians, also Persian empires, for sure will make an appearance at some point in the base game, so a change from Persians to Achaemenids seems a necessity.

Yeah, let's have a gravel surface one for the Wonder, since it's built by the player and is supposedly "maintained" by their people. And then we have a grass covered one for a map "ruins" object.

Seems to work:

Working with procedural shading and curves found a way to make alpha channel rendering so we can have more decal's per civilization. Starting with the roman's wich i had the idea of giving them the city appearence with the stone roads i would like any advice to deliver unique aspect of decals per civilization for next alpha: Would like any advice or sketch for next civs and also rome ones. Still work to do.

Thanks for the comprehensive answer! @Thalatta Indeed, there are many different playing styles - from competitive MP to relaxed SP (my favourire as an elderly guy). My intention was to start a discussion on naming the various playing levels and referring to them in a way that does not discourage people from trying out the game. Probably too much concerns as everyone should be able to find out that there is an easier setting if a game is too difficult as a beginner when set to "medium", same as there are means to make it more difficult (increased diffulty setting, more adversaries, higher speed, less resources etc.). Just, when initially "opening the box" default setting should be such that people can apprecviate the beauty of the game and its historicaly-appealing gameplay while challenges increase slowly.

Thanks - but it really is a conversion of gameplay and will require a lot of effort. (nevertheless, as you can tell from my enthusiasm - I firmly believe this could be a fascinating change (needless to say that I loved playing settlers in the past... )

That sounds good Grautvornix

sure you can start playing around with it and we can have a test version to work on it!

If you are ok if it takes a couple of years, I could code it

I have thought about similar things, but i don't know how to implement this... anyone with coding want to help out? I thought it would be neat if storehouses/farmsteads held "X" resources before they were brought to the CC, and if they were captured, the capturer would gain the loot of the resources stored before transferred to a safer place.

What if you guys added some backgrounds for when you first open the game

Should we provide multiple models of Kurgans and have a random selection which one to build and show? Or provide the user with options? Or build a fresh one (with bpepples and let it "decay" over time of game into a grass covered kurgan? I don't know....

You got a point! those stairs should be wooden.

@AlexandermbGreat stuff!!!!! For the Roman Army camp, however I am not sure, but I would believe that they might not have taken the time and effort to implement paved stairs but rather wooden stairs. What do you think?

Rome army camp:

Rome Workshop: Comparisson:

Rome Stable and Range:

Do you still need answers? Has there been a discussion about preferred units somewhere? Just a few things in the meantime. Regarding the great Gupta emperors, all were warriors and patrons of learning, giving them auras with combat and maybe tech speed bonuses. For their differences: -Chandra-gupta I: founder of the empire, unified territory through marriage, followed by conquest. Maybe capture bonus (since diplomacy mechanics are not that complex). -Samudra-gupta: the conqueror, put in place a great army, which probably included a navy. More combat, and military production speed bonuses. -Chandra-gupta II: patron of learning, similar to the previous one, but maybe the greatest. Brought to maturity the empire. Production or more tech speed bonuses. -Skanda-gupta: protector of the empire, successful against invasions, considered the last of the greats. Maybe structure's arrow count bonus. As an alternative, Aryabhata I: famous thinker (math, astronomy, physics), if having these non-combat heroes is a thing. Could greatly accelerate tech research speed when garrisoning a building. It’s hard for me not to give importance to the learning advances in this period, which I can only translate to tech research speed in the game (maybe could be balanced by having lots of techs to research). The Nalanda mahavihara could be a related unique structure, possibly a Wonder. Another unique structure could be the Delhi Iron Pillar, and the Aśvamedha ritual a unique tech (both could increase Hero/emperor’s stats).

This is indeed a better example and a good question/remark. Just adding food for thought, the Gallic Wonder based on the Sanctuary of Corent is not clean and fresh: So maybe it is a general issue in how 0 A.D. portrays the ancient civilizations.

To make emphasis on the "civ" decal's heres an example of gauls dirt rocky ground decal vs rome cobblestone decal:

@Genava55 the point obviously is, as noted before, how something looks when it's freshly built. I mentioned the Colossus because it's a Wonder that came to mind that changed quite fast, thus the distinction between earthquakes and grass is quite irrelevant considering what the actual point is. And no, it was not "completely destroyed", it remained in the ground for centuries, still in its way a wonder, in words of Pliny the Elder: "even as it lies, it excites our wonder and admiration". But if earthquakes distract you so much, then another example more aligned to the grass issue: should the Statue of Liberty (assuming a game reaching the modern age) be built with the green patina already on it? Might look familiar, but it's inaccurate, which has been the point all along. Now, another issue is, is the Wonder some generic kurgan? Because yes, some had pebbles, others not, so maybe it should be decided first which kurgan in particular should be represented (the largest?), and if it never had pebbles to begin with then there's not much discussion to be had, I think. Personally I might have gone for the mausoleum of Skilurus (which seems more unique).

It's the wonder of the Anglo-Saxons, Church of Brixworth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Saints'_Church,_Brixworth https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/22783-1000-anglo-saxons-all-saints-church-brixworth-wonder/#comment-336603

Maybe even without the lower roof? I could even give them an animation so the presses go up and down all the time

wip