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Hannibal_Barca

Vox Populi - The Ultimate Balance Mod

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3 minutes ago, sphyrth said:

Is it correct for me to assume that the Replays are version-dependent; meaning that 22.1.2 Replays won't work on 22.1.1 Game and vice-versa?

Yes, this happens in whole 0 A.D

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Didn't understand the question. Serialization is just creation of a savegame (that is either saved to the disk or sent via network for multiplayer rejoins)

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On ‎14‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 5:09 AM, elexis said:

Didn't understand the question. Serialization is just creation of a savegame (that is either saved to the disk or sent via network for multiplayer rejoins)

I mean... I a change a file or mod a minimal thing after save a match, is possible load the saved match and play without receive warnings.

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@Hannibal_Barca i think you made a very interesting mistake in this mod that could be just fine for the gameplay! Honestly I stopped playing your mod coz the AI doesn’t make cavalry but guess what happend to my game last night?! The Iberians attacked me with P2 melee cavalries! I was wondering this morning maybe they built corral and research mounts but when I review his base there’s no corral!

I think you might have missed to include the Iberians for cavalry restrictions if there is no mount technology researched. Once it reaches P2 the melee cavalry becomes available. It could be hardly noticeable/detectable  if you play the Civ coz the melee cav will be only available in P2.

Think about it.

 

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14 hours ago, Servo said:

@Hannibal_Barca i think you made a very interesting mistake in this mod that could be just fine for the gameplay! Honestly I stopped playing your mod coz the AI doesn’t make cavalry but guess what happend to my game last night?! The Iberians attacked me with P2 melee cavalries! I was wondering this morning maybe they built corral and research mounts but when I review his base there’s no corral!

I think you might have missed to include the Iberians for cavalry restrictions if there is no mount technology researched. Once it reaches P2 the melee cavalry becomes available. It could be hardly noticeable/detectable  if you play the Civ coz the melee cav will be only available in P2.

Think about it.

 

Indeed Iberian cavalry seem to have been left unmodified, this was accidental

I do not think it should be done like this though, I'm postponing the next version till I have added stables for each civ, this will fix the AI problem and make it more authentic

 

Speaking about the next version, it'll feature hero abilities and a unique technology for each civilization. It will also correct some hindsights and things that were overlooked.

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Well if you maintain the same meta which is good to delay OP cavalry production  and the AI behavior is not altered it’s (the AI) not going to train cavalry which is not good for SP. MP has no problem with the meta though. Anyhow the AI still train champ cavalries. 

If you consider mercenary cavalries as paid combatants, there is no sense for them to need technology research and as soon as structures and resources  for training them are in place they should be available. 

I like to have more regular combat units for every Civ (in SP)but IMO maybe only 3 to 4 units of each( infantry, cavalry and siege including champs) should be available and the rest are mercenaries. Though it’s really painful to not have all the very historical units a faction had during those times but gamers are just playing necessary units to win the game.

Well let’s see what comes out from next alpha. BTW Kushite units are really nice! I haven’t made the cavalry champ coz it looks like the Ptolemy champ (kinda fat looking) but the two temple guards are really fun (one looks like a Viking though!). And the regular units are really awesome!

On balancing IDK what to say coz I’m running the game in .25 speed to avoid lag but I observe that units don’t die easily. Whether it’s good or not I don’t have expertise to judge for MP games on normal speed.

 

Edited by Servo

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> Hamilcar's 2nd aura: As you all probably have figured by now, Hamilcar is not a "useful" hero (giving only +15% speed compared to the attack bonuses of Marhabal & Hannibal)

> Thus, a new aura has been created (based on historical facts) which decreases enemy mercenary attack values by 20%.

 

 That sounds less useful than Hamilcar's a22 aura.  I have used Hamilcar before when raiding with ranged cavalry, because Hannibal is too slow to follow the cavalry around as they raid, and Maharbal doesn't boost them.  Hamilcar also is sword cavalry which can be good for defending against rams.


Compare your proposed aura to the other heroes.  Hannibal gives +20% effectiveness for all soldiers.  Your Hamilcar only gives +25% effectiveness when fighting mercenaries, which in most games the enemy is not using exclusively; the proposed Hamilcar is therefore strictly weaker than Hannibal aside from his greater mobility.  Maharbal gives +30% effectiveness as long as your army consists primarily of melee cavalry, and it's your choice to commit to melee cavalry not your enemy's so you can take full advantage of that 30% bonus.  So again, better than your Hamilcar.


Maharbal doesn't necessarily need a boost but how about:  +25% speed instead of +15%.

 

 


> Domestic animals base train time doubled, added new technology "Husbandry" for -15% train time and moved Stockbreeding to the Town Phase with maintained -25%.

So, this means you need almost double the number of corrals for a given corral food production (more than double in age 1), and you need more food tied up building sheep as well.  In addition to the doubled cost, it's hard enough to cram enough corrals within your territory because they take up so much space, even in a22.  With twice the number of corrals, the problem of fitting the corrals in your territory would become just a big pain.

This would just make players not use corrals.  Corrals aren't that great even in a22, except for the minor population boost if you are hitting the population cap.  Many of the best players, such as temple, use farms instead of corrals even while building and attacking with cavalry.  Other of the best players do use them.  But, double their cost and double their space requirement, and they would just not be effective.

Edited by causative
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On 10/27/2017 at 11:36 PM, causative said:

That sounds less useful than Hamilcar's a22 aura

It's an addition aura (btw I recall Hamilcar aura is global, don't need to drag him along on raids as he lags behind anyway)

 

On 10/27/2017 at 11:36 PM, causative said:

So, this means you need almost double the number of corrals for a given corral food production (more than double in age 1), and you need more food tied up building sheep as well.  In addition to the doubled cost, it's hard enough to cram enough corrals within your territory because they take up so much space, even in a22.  With twice the number of corrals, the problem of fitting the corrals in your territory would become just a big pain.

This would just make players not use corrals.  Corrals aren't that great even in a22, except for the minor population boost if you are hitting the population cap.  Many of the best players, such as temple, use farms instead of corrals even while building and attacking with cavalry.  Other of the best players do use them.  But, double their cost and double their space requirement, and they would just not be effective.

With both cheap techs you can train domestic animals at only +27,5% train time of current unupgraded

Yes, IF you wish to go all-corrals your food production will be slower compared to current. In a22 you can get by with around 13 cavalry and 10 corrals, with this I'd expect 8-9

Keep in mind that having sheep pop out as fast as/faster than they get killed and collected is a bit.. weird

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>It's an addition aura (btw I recall Hamilcar aura is global, don't need to drag him along on raids as he lags behind anyway)

Fair enough.

> With both cheap techs you can train domestic animals at only +27,5% train time of current unupgraded

+27.5% train time for unupgraded isn't the issue.  It's +70% train time relative to current upgraded (math is:  1.275 / 0.75).  Everybody in a22 gets stockbreeding immediately before producing any sheep, or they should.

Compare them in age 1.  In age 1, in vox populi you get husbandry and in a22 you get stockbreeding.  The vox populi corral produces 2.26 times more slowly (+126% train time).  The math is (2 * 0.85 / 0.75).  That means you need more than twice as many corrals in age 1 for a given production, and more than twice as much food tied up in producing sheep - more than twice the cost.

>In a22 you can get by with around 13 cavalry and 10 corrals, with this I'd expect 8-9

In a22, heavy corral players such as JC use more in the area of 20 corrals.  That would be increased to 34 corrals with the +70% train time, taking up a ton of space and not being even feasible on more crowded maps.

> Keep in mind that having sheep pop out as fast as/faster than they get killed and collected is a bit.. weird

It's not significantly less weird if they pop out just a bit slower than they get butchered.  I believe the butchering animation can be considered to metaphorically represent all aspects of herding sheep, and then it's not weird.

Edited by causative

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15 hours ago, causative said:

Compare them in age 1.  In age 1, in vox populi you get husbandry and in a22 you get stockbreeding.  The vox populi corral produces 2.26 times more slowly (+126% train time).  The math is (2 * 0.85 / 0.75).  That means you need more than twice as many corrals in age 1 for a given production, and more than twice as much food tied up in producing sheep - more than twice the cost.

A civilization in the village phase should rely mostly on grain. Some nomadic civilizations could get a bonus but not all

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10 minutes ago, Hannibal_Barca said:

A civilization in the village phase should rely mostly on grain. Some nomadic civilizations could get a bonus but not all

People living in the city phase should rely mostly on grain; bread was already a luxury for city-dwellers in Antiquity. Those living in villages and on the countryside had plenty of space to keep livestock and typically had a much healthier and varied diet, which also included cheese and occassionally meat.

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Just now, Nescio said:

People living in the city phase should rely mostly on grain; bread was already a luxury for city-dwellers in Antiquity. Those living in villages and on the countryside had plenty of space to keep livestock and typically had a much healthier and varied diet, which also included cheese and occassionally meat.

But that still doesn't justify a 100% livestock diet :)

So they can do fields + corral supplement

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17 minutes ago, Hannibal_Barca said:

But that still doesn't justify a 100% livestock diet :)

So they can do fields + corral supplement

Yeah, I agree, for villages; for cities it's probably closer to 100% grain :)

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> So they can do fields + corral supplement

Considering that many very good players in a22 don't use corrals anyway despite the popularity of cavalry, the vox populi change would not lead to a mix of farms and corrals.  It would just lead to only farms.

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As humble (and n00b) player, cavalry shouldn't take 2 population slots instead of 1? I am not complaining for the current 'meta' (that could always change) it's just I feel it should reflect the fact there are both soldiers and horses to feed.

If I am not wrong, elephants already take 3 population slots but cavalry it's still taking 1. I think it should be taken into consideration for either this - great - mod or the game itself.

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On 05/12/2017 at 8:21 PM, Dade said:

As humble (and n00b) player, cavalry shouldn't take 2 population slots instead of 1? I am not complaining for the current 'meta' (that could always change) it's just I feel it should reflect the fact there are both soldiers and horses to feed.

If I am not wrong, elephants already take 3 population slots but cavalry it's still taking 1. I think it should be taken into consideration for either this - great - mod or the game itself.

Besides having both horse and rider to feed, cavalry also has higher movement speed, health, vision range, and attack than infantry counterparts, therefore it is perfectly sensible to increase their population requirement to two instead of one. This is actually one of many things I implemented in my mod, 0abc, months ago. One side-effect is that armies have higher infantry to cavalry ratios, which is perfectly fine, since armies with 10% cavalry or more were highly uncommon in Antiquity.

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I don't disagree with the Cav/Pop thing, but this made me think  about Ashoka The Great.

He has 4 Horses, 2 Drivers, and him. Amounting to 7 pop. Now THAT'S royalty. XD

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New release

  • Exotic technologies for each civilization - main goal for now is 1/civilization so feel free to help out fill the missing ones
  • Hero abilities
  • XP trickle added (thanks to patch by @temple - btw this should be added to vanilla too)
  • Stables added

vox_populi_22.1.3

 

Note: Due to some problems with my installed version and compiled version buggy response I can not test the mod, @(-_-) has been trusted to complete this version so please refer any bugs to him

Edited by Hannibal_Barca

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