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https://en.subalternosblog.com/post/collegiati-the-gangsters-of-ancient-rome I can think of a couple of units and technologies based on these ideas. https://www.zmescience.com/feature-post/history-and-humanities/history/roman-collegia-ancient-corporations/

Here is another update to version 1.4.5 for both mods (modiomod-r28 and modiomod-r29). Had Claude check the code and it found a few little glitches and I also improved the info text display for each selected mod below the list so that it is actually readable. Attached is also the documentation (a readme is also avaialbale within each zip). Also tried to find a way to display all the mod icons that are available on mod.io, but they cannot be downloaded automatically from within the game. Therefore there is a little add-on python tool that does that outside the game and stores the icons within the modiomod structure. Not noice but possibly an inspiration for future in game implementation. modiomod-tools-1.4.5.zip modiomod-r28.zip modiomod-changes.md modiomod-r29.zip TOOLS.txt

Some games with mechanics like the one you're implementing do this. https://www.gamespot.com/articles/e3-06-rise-and-fall-civilizations-at-war-hands-on-single-player-hero-mode-naval-combat-and-the-ancient-world/1100-6147762/

The only reason they have a range bonus, is when I tested it, it seemed like you had to get really close for the units to actually attack I didn't think about swimming. Maybe if they had like drowning effect, and can't fight, but you can send them to shore, or garrison them on a boat

Are you able to provide ressources? This would underly your advocacy attempt and may lead to faster implementation.

Yes, this change makes this simplified passage a bit more accurate. But instead of 'fell', 'lost its independency' would fit more.

They should swim or die, depending on where they are.

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/history/article/phoenicians-bible-archaeology-canaanites I'm going to contribute with a little bit of "something extra".

I left the source above, but only look for the images that wow said it wanted. The rest are just my comments are based on what I know about Near Eastern cultures.

The Phoenicians were a Semitic people, nothing to do with the Greeks (except that the latter based their alphabet on the former).

Maybe when the encyclopedia will be available within the game we could explain the context and the nuance around the concept of Marian reforms.

I suppose if you treat it as additional storage capacity (not for fighting, but capable of fighting, so no buffs), it could work out ok. But even still, it would complicate any attempts to scale down ship models to improve ship pathing.

I agree with you that turreting units on boats is cool, but I think once the novelty wears off, this won't bring much enhancement to multiplayer. First of all, in the PR, the range of garrisoned units is doubled, which would result in 140m range archers when combined with archery tradition. So by needing to make turreted units stronger to make a difference on water, you risk adding balance exploits when the ships are brought near land. also, a major complaint of prior navy gameplay was the need to garrison soldiers for ship effectiveness. Needing to garrison much of your total population space on ships to properly fight on water meant a constant labor of garrisoning and ungarrisoning ships to switch between fighting on land vs. sea. Also the current naval design splits ships into classes with distinct roles. By making a ram ship capable of ranged attacks, the arrow ship would be somewhat redundant. My opinion is that the proposal is better off as a standalone mod.

I think they should make the buildings more greek looking. Carthage was founded and ruled by phoenician (greek) men.

I'd get rid of it entirely, they were not at all used in combat whatsoever, or maybe make them much weaker (and more clothed) but they get an advantage when in the vicinity of a mauryan hero

They should get rid of the maiden guard, this unit has basically no military background, in history it was used for espionage and not for combat.

I think they can keep their black-and-white shields. We can also let them keep their black chiton. I think the most important thing is to stop calling them “black-cloak” or “Melanochitone.”

As for the Spartans, I start with issues that should be fixed, and end with more optional takes. From now on I'll be hiding references to make posts a bit lighter. The next part(s) will be mostly about siege engines and ships. PART I Simple things that should be: -In the civ description, "fell in 330 BC" should be "fell in 338 BC": a mistake regarding the Battle of Chaeronea. -Athenian Long Walls should be Makra Teichē (Long Walls): how they were called, and no need to add "Athenian". -Arsenal of Philon should be Philōnos Skeuothēkē (Arsenal of Philon), and have a different icon: to follow proper nomenclature, and instead of a flipped Arsenal icon with blue background, the actual remarkable building could be shown. -Ploion Phortegikon (Merchantmen) should be Histiokopos (Merchantmen), and Ploion Halieutikon (Fishing Boat) maybe be Epaktron (Fishing Boat): the present name comes from someone posting "I don't know what the correct word is, though. Perhaps ploion phortegikon?". His source is fine for the fishing boat, but I came across these terms in a book on ancient ships. -Ostracism should be Ostrakismos (Ostracism), and have a different icon: to follow proper nomenclature. The icon looks too much like the fist of Will to Fight… I'd raise its middle finger . No, the icon could be an inscribed ostracon (hence the name), a piece of pottery where the name of the person being voted to be ostracised would be scratched on. -Athenian Slingers should be Athenian Archers: seems way more appropriate according to records. -The Hypozomata icon should be changed: and show them instead of an anchor. -The Parthenon should have eight columns on its front: I understand that this decision could have been taken because of space constraints and simplified representations, but it's a bit shocking to those who have a clear enough idea of what it should look like, since it was not common in mainland Doric temples, making that a big part of its uniqueness. The sides should have 17, but that's much less noticeable. -The dock's roof and column configuration is wrong: as I've already mentioned somewhere. -The Merchantman’s eye seems low quality: at least when compared to other ships. Simple things that could be: -Economic Reforms could be Seisachtheia (Debt Relief), and Economic Fortune could be Euboikos Stathmos (Euboic Standard): names of actual Solonian reforms, instead of boring Catafalque bonus names. Economic Reforms increases Worker gathering speed, and the seisachtheia, "relief of burdens", were a debt relief set of laws. Economic Fortune cheapens economic techs, and the Euboic weight standard made commerce more competitive. -Commercial Treaty could be Symbola (Bilateral Treaty): for corresponding Greek civs. -Delian League civ bonus could be Triērarchia (Trierarchy): this is from before the start of the game (according to some), and lasted way longer. The trierarchy (successor of the previous naucrary system) was a public service obligation on the wealthy for the outfitting, maintenance and operation of warships, allowing for their more efficient financing and manning. -Periclean Defense Strategy could be Strategic Withdrawal, and Scholarship and the Arts could be either Pentecontaetia or Golden Age: these Pericles Hero bonus names are too long, and unspecific. The first explains what the strategy actually was, and the second refers to either the period of Athenian rise, or the more generic "Golden Age" term, also used for this period. -Peltast Reforms could be Iphicratids, and for all infantry: this Iphicrates Hero bonus gives Infantry Javelineers +15% movement speed, which comes from a misreading of Diodorus Siculus by the Encyclopædia Britannica. Still, something Iphicrates did do is improve boots of troops in general. It's quite confusing to have Iphicratean Reforms, Peltast Reforms and Formation Reforms, when the first two seem to be the same thing (it's not exactly known what the Iphicratean reforms entailed, if they even happened), I'll return to this later. I'm not sure what Formation Reforms refers to, given that 63 stratagems are attributed to him. Changes that have been already proposed: -Conscription at the Stable could be Hippeia (Cavalry Class): already proposed State Weaponry as the Conscription alternative for the Barracks (since "conscription" has modern connotations, and infantry and cavalry weren't "conscripted" in the same way). The cavalry class would involve the wealthiest citizens, linked in turn to cavalry service as an obligation: https://lexarithmos.app/en/lexicon/ippeia. Other changes that could be considered: -Naval oriented civs could have Lighthouses, for increased FOV and ship speed bonus: these appeared in the Hellenistic period. In addition, common early buildings that are not being considered are Stadions, Hippodromes, and Gymnasions (beyond the Athenians), just to mention them. -Tragōidia (Tragedy) and Kōmōidia (Comedy) techs for the Theatre: they were invented around the start of the game. The Spartans could have things like Gymnopaídiai (Gymnopaediae) instead, since they "held mostly non-scenic contests and games", like the "Gymnopaidiai". -Ohi Peri Ton Dionyson Technitai (Artists of Dionysus) tech for the Theatre: late tech (270s BC), association of artists that coordinated performances. They were also present in Ptolemaic Egypt, Macedon and Thebes, among others. -Demosthenes' Reforms tech: mid-game tech (340 BC) for cheaper ships. A reform of the trierarchy, which fixed the total number of triremes and distributed costs better. -Markets could have Aleteia/Letourgia mutually exclusive techs: Aleteia could cheapen Traders, while Letourgia could increase returns per trade, since either rich men have either tax exemptions (to increase commerce, but the state doesn’t get as much per trade), or must contribute (causing the opposite). There should be situational case uses. -Oligarchy/Demagogy mutually exclusive techs: the first giving a defense bonus, the second an attack bonus. -Hoplomachia (Weapons Training) could improve hoplite experience gained while garrisoned: mid- to late-game tech, since hoplites in Classical Greece didn't train with weapons (only their bodies), not even the Spartans (or at least there's no evidence for it), the idea being that courage alone was enough (most didn't have free time for it anyway). Weapons training picked up only at the end of the Classical period. Of course others like ranged units are not included in this (I don't know if presently they gain experience by hunting, which would make sense). -Mediterranean Draw could be a preceding tech for Archery Training, for Greeks: mostly for those who want to add techs in their mods, this draw technique became more standard early in the game's timeframe, although it should improve mediocre archers, not make them better than those from civs where archery was culturally relevant. These things seem a bit out of place in the Forge. -Chomata (Moles) Dock tech: to increase Dock HP. -The Gymnasium could be treated quite differently: I wonder what's the reason for having Schytian Archers coming out of this building, Mercenary Camps should be the way to go for mercenaries: Crete, Thrace and Scythia were never really part of the Athenian "empire". I would then relocate the other military units from here to the Barracks, and move Iphicratean Reforms to the Council Chamber. Gymnasia were all around centers of training and study. The Academia of Plato, Lyceum of Aristotle and Kynosarges of Antisthenes were the greatest in Athens. They would mainly have (inside or around) a palaestra (for pankration, etc) and a dromoi (for running, hoplitodromos, etc), which could be damage and speed techs, respectively. Since I think it would be nice for each civ to have a unique limited preferably non-combat unit, like Han Ministers (or Spartan Ephors and Theban Musicians I proposed), Athens could train Philosophers, to give research or culture bonuses or whatever. It was also associated with medical training since the Aleiptae, who oiled and dusted athletes, also acted as surgeons (if eventually actual healers and priests are separated). -Epibatēs Athēnaios (Athenian Marine) could be Iphikrateios Hoplitēs (Iphicratean Hoplite): contradictorily enough, Athens didn't rely on "marines" for boarding, but on ramming (AI gets easily confused with these things). The word epibatēs is used in general for anyone on deck, and the deck-soldiers were (mostly) hoplites. Iphicratean hoplites is a modern term for something poorly attested that didn't really caught on in mainland Greece then: in principle hoplites were given longer weapons, lighter armor, and smaller shields, and/or (more probably) peltasts were given long spears and more armour, basically producing proto-pikemen, and possibly just for mercenaries in naval service. -Iphicratean Reforms could be called Arms Reforms, unlock Iphicratean Hoplites, and other effects: this should be the order, and I think these units were had in mind when creating the "Marine". I renamed it because, as mentioned, there's some redundancy around. Iphicratean Hoplites could be trained in Docks and Triremes, given that some think this applied to mercenaries in naval service, after witnessing Egyptian forces possibly using long spears for naval combat. If possible, Thracian Peltasts could gain experience to have the ability to switch to them (maybe too weird to have a mercenary switching to champion), and right now the Athenians don't have a hoplite mercenary force to also do this. If we are to literally believe Siculus (risky), Athenian hoplites would do. -Epilektos (City Guard) is not characteristically Athenian, while a Fast Ramming Trireme could instead be considered: epilektoi just means "chosen" in armies, and many had them. I know that a ship would be a weird champion unit, and I'll return to this in the corresponding part about ships, although I wish I had better ideas for an Athenian land champion unit, maybe later. The Epilektoi Infantry civ bonus would then be removed, its role taken in part by the Arms Reforms tech. Other information that could eventually be useful: -For an Iphicrates javelinmen bonus, "the running Spartans finally gave up and turned around only to have Iphicrates and his crew reverse back into range and take out a few more of them from behind", from Hoplites at War A Comprehensive Analysis of Heavy Infantry Combat in the Greek World, 750-100 BCE, by P. M. Bardunias and F. E. Ray Jr. -For an Iphicrates ship bonus, "not only did Iphicrates improve his oarsmen's fitness but also made his ships go faster", from The Age of the Galley, by R. Gardiner. -Siege Tower Artillery tech to increase its firepower, not sure about Athens in particular: "the bottom storey (..) is supposed to have accommodated (...) stone-projectors (...) there would have been space for only three, side by side (...) to concentrate heavy firepower at battlement level, where men and masonry were most vulnerable (...) little point in loading artillery in the upper storeys, where its limited angle of depression was a handicap (...) catapults in the third and fourth storeys could have proved useful at long range". -Bronze Teeth tech for battering ram to add pierce and maybe cut damage, not sure about Athens in particular: "Bronze head (...) late-5th-century (...) five triangular teeth, was perhaps designed to cut into mud-brick", from Greek and Roman Siege Machinery 399 BC-AD 363, by D. B. Campbell. -For those who want secondary weapons, Scythian archers could also have axes: they were "armed with a composite bow, a dagger and the sagaris, or battle-axe", from Ancient Greek Warship, by N. Fields. -Order names for when formations take a bigger role: "Orders for a turn – epistrophe for a 'quarter-turn' or perispasmos for a 'half-turn'", from Athenian Hoplite vs Spartan Hoplite, by M. Dahm. -To denote rank, maybe I mentioned greaves and cloak, but only the second would be accurate long-term: "Greaves fell out of use before the Peloponnesian War; armour became simpler and the cloak became more common (and was viewed as a symbol of rank in both Athens and Sparta)", from Athenian Hoplite vs Spartan Hoplite, by M. Dahm. For reference, the preceding Thoughts on the Spartans post: https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/143241-thoughts-on-the-spartans: the comments made for the Spartans on techs from the Civic Centre, House, Dock, Forge, Temple, dropsites and fortifications apply also to the Athenians (in fact, some comments made were indicated not to apply to the Spartans).

Something like this should have been fixed in the last Release (R28): Issue #7438 Maybe Issue #8227 is related? It is supposed to be fixed in the next Release (R29).

Worked for me. Just did the pull request, #9221

So i've played the civ and they seem to have only fishing and trade ships. IMO they could have a very light ship just for scouting and transport. Strabo mentions sewn boats, but it's unclear what they are and if they are even scythian I've seen one source suggest these could be Scythian boats covered in animal hide; but they might also be foreign plank boats https://www.researchgate.net/publication/331018044_Ancient_Mediterranean_Sewn-Boat_Traditions_ANCIENT_MEDITERRANEAN_SEWN-BOAT_TRADITIONS Other option would just be the dugout canoe, used in east european rivers from stone age to medieval period. They are mentioned in Priscus' accounts of the Hun territory, but i'm not sure what people was using them (later Romans would call almost any nomadic people Scythian, even the Goths).

Bug with Roman workers going idle after Marian Reforms upgrade. How to replicate the bug: Play the Romans, select the Marian Reforms upgrade in the fortress. Have several infantry mining stone or metal. When the Marian Reforms upgrade is complete, the mining infantry units will go idle. Or, if you had them queued up to go somewhere else, they go to the next place without finishing the current mining resource.

Buenos día o tardes: -Muy buenas referencias y fuentes, por favor no dude en subir más , es de gran ayuda para el mod Endovélico. Me gustaría saber que ideas tiene para el árbol de unidades y estructuras para esta facción (Entre los años 500 a.c-100d.c,por la cronología del mod). Disculpen por las inconveniencias*

I really get sad when reading thread titles like this one and replies seconding it. IMO saying an open source software project 'is wasting its potential!' is discrediting the work of the main developers and the hundreds of contributors who are all doing it voluntarily in their free-time. You can't use key figures like controlling in a capitalistic enterprise does to work for share holders. FYI