Kushites: Gameplay, heroes & stuff

[Gurken Khan]

RNG dealt me Kushites, so I looked into something that always puzzled me. First question: do you ever build the Grand Temple of Amun? I never felt compelled to spend 600 stone so my champions would have -5% health.

Second: The first capital of the Kushites was Napata, then it was Meroe; so I find it a bit off that we first can build a temple that can produce Meroititc Temple Guards and then the temple that can train Napatan Temple Guards.

Thirdly: Arakamani has the perk "Follower of Apedemak" which grants bonuses for training "Apedemak Temple Guards", while the champion trained at the Apedemak Temple is called "Meroitic Temple Guard"; I assume that doesn't have gameplay implications (maybe someone could check if those bonuses are granted), but I think it's wrong that the unit is not called its proper name. @Stan` @Sundiata

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

Grand temple of Amun can be used to make healers start at rank 3. Not so useful in a25 because of healers' behavior and the meatshield meta. In a26 I could see this becoming quite powerful for elephants, swordsmen, and archers that Kushites get. 

Also, it is a massive temple, which has the following benefits:

• 40 unit garrison space
• teleport distance is insane
• large hp

Edited September 10, 2022 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[Gurken Khan]

@BreakfastBurrito_007 So you never built it before but could imagine building it in the future?

I could agree to the benefits you listed, but for the price and the building time and then microing to take advantage of the teleport?

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@Gurken Khan I have built it in MP when I play kush occasionally. Usually when I play kush I like to do "fun stuff" in p2 that usually makes me lose economy compared to other players so I never boom enough to make that building. 600 stone is maybe a bit much for it tho.

About the RNG dealt you thing. Unless it was a26, it was not rng XD because it was not random. There is the region-based selected randomization that makes you more likely to get a civ with no other civs in its "region"

Edited September 11, 2022 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[Gurken Khan]

1 hour ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

About the RNG dealt you thing. Unless it was a26, it was not rng XD because it was not random. There is the region-based selected randomization that makes you more likely to get a civ with no other civs in its "region"

Of course I'm on a26 RC3!

Interesting, I didn't know there was this random/region thing. Currently I'm kush in India with the enemy team a bit further away being double kush...

[alre]

8 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

About the RNG dealt you thing. Unless it was a26, it was not rng XD because it was not random. There is the region-based selected randomization that makes you more likely to get a civ with no other civs in its "region"

that's still technically random, and of course it always relied on RNG.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

5 hours ago, alre said:

that's still technically random, and of course it always relied on RNG.

nah, random has to have even chance. I suppose in the gaming world, when people say RNG they mean more that the mechanic isn't purely skill driven and has some chance factors. 

[alre]

18 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

nah, random has to have even chance. I suppose in the gaming world, when people say RNG they mean more that the mechanic isn't purely skill driven and has some chance factors. 

those are technical words with precise meanings, and the following are facts:

- random does not require even chances

- RNG are algorithms that were always used behind random picking civs.

I am an expert in the field.

[Lion.Kanzen]

The Kushites are not attractive except that they have almost everything.

 

In theory they should be good archers but the combo needs something else to be interesting.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

6 hours ago, alre said:

- random does not require even chances

Really? it was my understanding they had to be equal chances. If I can predict that it's more likely to pick mauryans over seleucids, then there is some predictability. 

I guess you still can't know for sure, even though it may be more likely. I guess that makes it still random.

Edited September 12, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@alre thanks for the explanation, it is still a welcome change that regions are not selected first, and that it is now random with even chances.

[chrstgtr]

6 hours ago, alre said:

those are technical words with precise meanings, and the following are facts:

Random is also a colloquial word, which is how it's being used here--people want a random civ generator that provides equal chances of selection. 

[Gurken Khan]

6 hours ago, alre said:

- random does not require even chances

- RNG are algorithms that were always used behind random picking civs.

I had to think of Roulette, where the 0 is random but not equal chance.

@alre IIRC it used to be that the culture was "rolled" first (like Hellenic) and then the civ; has that changed?

 

If we have the random stuff out of the way I'd still be interested in opinions regarding the opening post.

[alre]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Really? it was my understanding they had to be equal chances. If I can predict that it's more likely to pick mauryans over seleucids, then there is some predictability. 

I guess you still can't know for sure, even though it may be more likely. I guess that makes it still random.

exactly.

if randomness required equal chances, we couldn't say, for instance, that arrows land at random, because you don't have equal chances of different outcomes.

looking further into the subject, there is a common concept of things being more or less random based on how predictable they are. techinically, this is uncorrect because randomness is a on/off property, and there are better, more mathematically sound concepts for expressing diversity in expected outcomes. but of course this is where technical jargon and common speech really diverge.

I hope @Gurken Khan will forgive me for the OT, I promise I'm over it.

[alre]

2 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

The Kushites are not attractive except that they have almost everything.

 

In theory they should be good archers but the combo needs something else to be interesting.

the kushites are adorable only because of the starting priest, that makes early rides something more entirely; then there's all the rest of the stuff. I mean, they can mace buildings! it doesn't make sense, but is fun.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, Gurken Khan said:

IIRC it used to be that the culture was "rolled" first (like Hellenic) and then the civ; has that changed?

I believe it used to be because the "successors" for example were a large portion of the civs, and to get more visual and cultural diversity, the groups were picked first, then the civ within.

Now that we have 14 civs and plenty of differentiation between them (even between groups), an equal chances model was deemed more appropriate.

[Gurken Khan]

27 minutes ago, alre said:

I hope @Gurken Khan will forgive me for the OT, I promise I'm over it.

np. We might as well follow it through.

I still might try to get back to my original points, tho.

[Lion.Kanzen]

57 minutes ago, alre said:

the kushites are adorable only because of the starting priest, that makes early rides something more entirely; then there's all the rest of the stuff. I mean, they can mace buildings! it doesn't make sense, but is fun.

They should improve that. it is almost playing with Persians and Mauryans.

Perhaps the priests should be more powerful.

[Gurken Khan]

On 11/09/2022 at 12:34 AM, Gurken Khan said:

Thirdly: Arakamani has the perk "Follower of Apedemak" which grants bonuses for training "Apedemak Temple Guards", while the champion trained at the Apedemak Temple is called "Meroitic Temple Guard"; I assume that doesn't have gameplay implications (maybe someone could check if those bonuses are granted), but I think it's wrong that the unit is not called its proper name.

I checked and Arakamani gives the Temple Guard bonuses.

[Lion.Kanzen]

they definitely need a rework.

@borg_ @borg-

Maybe Borg have something in mind.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Lion.Kanzen