Women worker buffs still in game?

[AxelAlexson]

Hi,

have returned to 0AD from a pretty decent pause [build 19XYZ] and I was wondering what happened to the females buffind male workers with their presence? Is that gone now or do the augmented stats just not show in game anymore?

Kind regards,
AxelAlexson

[hyperion]

It was removed. The main reason might have been it being deemed sexist.

[Akira Kurosawa]

57 minutes ago, AxelAlexson said:

what happened to the females buffind male workers

Now the Chinese minister and the Kushite pyramid buff it. Every minister nearby motivates you to work faster. There are 9 in total...

Spoiler

 

Edited August 26, 2022 by Mordred

[chrstgtr]

16 minutes ago, Mordred said:

Now the Chinese minister and the Kushite pyramid buff it. Every minister nearby motivates you to work faster. There are 9 in total...

 

Yeah, but a lot of the minister values don't make a lot of sense. For gather rate, you're basically always better off just making men instead of a minister. 

[Gurken Khan]

5 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

Yeah, but a lot of the minister values don't make a lot of sense. For gather rate, you're basically always better off just making men instead of a minister. 

By the time I can produce Ministers I garrison them in the Ministry (adds up to a trickle of 1 for every resource / every 2 seconds) and usually let them make a tour through buildings with expensive tecs and a high enough garrison limit every now and then. [And in end-game they come along on my "World Peace & Unity Tour" because they're solid units with a very good capture rate.]

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, chrstgtr said:

Yeah, but a lot of the minister values don't make a lot of sense. For gather rate, you're basically always better off just making men instead of a minister. 

Are you sure? The Minister can boost every unit in its aura, which can be a substantial number of units.

[Gurken Khan]

16 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Are you sure? The Minister can boost every unit in its aura, which can be a substantial number of units.

Right. Next to the CC, 20 on stone, 20 on metal, 30 on fields would be (70 x 2%) = 140%!

[chrstgtr]

3 hours ago, Gurken Khan said:

By the time I can produce Ministers I garrison them in the Ministry (adds up to a trickle of 1 for every resource / every 2 seconds) and usually let them make a tour through buildings with expensive tecs and a high enough garrison limit every now and then. [And in end-game they come along on my "World Peace & Unity Tour" because they're solid units with a very good capture rate.]

They cost 200 res each and have a .3 res per second trickle rate (different res, but food is actually collected slower than what you get a trickle of). That means it will take 11 minutes of garrisoning to get the exact amount of resources back (again, different resources so a natural collection would be even longer). Han also don't really need a ton of stone late game, which is .1 of the trick rate. If you exclude stone then it would take forever to get your res back. That is a really low ROI, especially when compared to the alternative of making one man that would collect resources and/or fight during that 11 min period. 

2 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Are you sure? The Minister can boost every unit in its aura, which can be a substantial number of units.

It boosts by 2% within its range. But they cost the amount of 2 units. So you're better off just making two CS (or 4 women for that matter) unless you have 100 units in the aura, which isn't possible a lot of the time because of where the res are located or your total pop size. 

There are caveats here with because that aura stacks (?), you might want to make to make units that can't collect res, wait time to actually make the ministers, building costs to make ministers, the location of res (which will impact how many men you can put within the gathering aura), other minister benefits, the time in the game when you want to make ministers (pop space is scarcer late game so eco units are less valuable), etc.

But generally speaking, just make CS men or women if you want the eco benefits. A hot fix here would be to just allow the ministers to also do eco (or adjust their values to a different level, which I would have to think about). 

Edited August 26, 2022 by chrstgtr

[chrstgtr]

7 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

Right. Next to the CC, 20 on stone, 20 on metal, 30 on fields would be (70 x 2%) = 140%!

Your math is wrong. It would be 2% of 70, so 1.4 extra units. Meanwhile, they cost the same amount of res as 2 units and need a special building (that also cost res/time) to be produced. 

Edited August 26, 2022 by chrstgtr

[Gurken Khan]

23 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

Your math is wrong.

Darn. (Maybe I should've used a smiley to make the joke more obvious.)

 

31 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

That is a really low ROI

Well, if I got my math right this time, the five tecs I research at the temple add up to 3200 food and 1600 metal; if I save 18% by using nine Ministers that would be 576 food and 288 metal? Three fort tecs (3600f, 1200w, 1200m) and I save 648 food, 216 wood and 216 metal. So food would be more than compensated and I spent some metal but saved other resources (including 10% from house and tower tecs).

AND I take them along in end-game, where they basically serve as champions, while they are cheaper and with their capture rate of 8 also nearly make up for their 2 pop count (but Han has 330 pop anyway).

So personally, I think they're totally worth it, but if other people don't wanna mess around with them I'm not gonna tell them how they have to play the game.

[chrstgtr]

5 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

Darn. (Maybe I should've used a smiley to make the joke more obvious.)

You're defending something that's indefensibly misvalued and liking comments that say the same. So, no, I cannot tell where you are serious or not. 

6 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

Well, if I got my math right this time, the five tecs I research at the temple add up to 3200 food and 1600 metal; if I save 18% by using nine Ministers that would be 576 food and 288 metal? Three fort tecs (3600f, 1200w, 1200m) and I save 648 food, 216 wood and 216 metal. So food would be more than compensated and I spent some metal but saved other resources (including 10% from house and tower tecs).

AND I take them along in end-game, where they basically serve as champions, while they are cheaper and with their capture rate of 8 also nearly make up for their 2 pop count (but Han has 330 pop anyway).

So personally, I think they're totally worth it, but if other people don't wanna mess around with them I'm not gonna tell them how they have to play the game.

All of this is different than what was previously discussed, so I don't know how it is relevant. There are other problems with these concepts/values but it doesn't seem worth getting off topic for. 

In short, I think ministers need basically all their values reconsidered but that is another topic that should be discussed once everyone has had a chance to understand/play with them. I expect players will quickly realize their costs/benefits are way askew and then never train them. 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

6 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

You're defending something that's indefensibly misvalued and liking comments that say the same. So, no, I cannot tell where you are serious or not. 

All of this is different than what was previously discussed, so I don't know how it is relevant. There are other problems with these concepts/values but it doesn't seem worth getting off topic for. 

In short, I think ministers need basically all their values reconsidered but that is another topic that should be discussed once everyone has had a chance to understand/play with them. I expect players will quickly realize their costs/benefits are way askew and then never train them. 

I expect the same, and I am pretty sure we did discuss changing the values in some earlier discussion. I think it would be cool if garrisoning a minister in a barracks or stable could increase the xp trickle rate of that building (non-stackable). 

yea overall I am glad that the woman bonus has been removed and now there are civ-specific ways to buff eco in certain radiuses.

[chrstgtr]

9 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I expect the same, and I am pretty sure we did discuss changing the values in some earlier discussion

 

We'll see. It's very hard to balance something if you don't have real play experience with them so I've stayed out of the Han discussions. Here, though, I think it's pretty clear cut. Luckily, these aren't bad enough to break the game (i.e., these aren't OP). 

[Gurken Khan]

43 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

You're defending something that's indefensibly misvalued and liking comments that say the same.

Yeah, you're right, producing Ministers to just put them next to workers is probably not worth it.

 

45 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

All of this is different than what was previously discussed, so I don't know how it is relevant. There are other problems with these concepts/values but it doesn't seem worth getting off topic for. 

My last post was merely an elaboration of my first post. I guess it was a slippery slope from buffing workers to discussing Ministers in more detail.

 

55 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

In short, I think ministers need basically all their values reconsidered but that is another topic that should be discussed once everyone has had a chance to understand/play with them. I expect players will quickly realize their costs/benefits are way askew and then never train them. 

Well, everyone has a chance to understand/play with them right now with the RCs. If you don't want to get into (my) costs/benefits arguments here but have opinions about that, why don't you open a thread about it so we can discuss it and hopefully improve it before the release of A26?

[chrstgtr]

1 hour ago, Gurken Khan said:

Well, everyone has a chance to understand/play with them right now with the RCs. If you don't want to get into (my) costs/benefits arguments here but have opinions about that, why don't you open a thread about it so we can discuss it and hopefully improve it before the release of A26?

It's just hard when you don't have other people to play with. More people leads to more diverse strategies and realistic testing. I'm sure it will be a topic of discussion after a26 is released when it can be more rigorously discussed. 

Right now, I personally don't have strong opinions on how ministers should be change. I am, however, confident that they are underpowered which is ok--there will be a lot of things about Han that will need to be rebalanced in a27. 

[alre]

hopefully, balance can be carried on with official rebalance mod that will be released with a26.

[AxelAlexson]

19 hours ago, hyperion said:

It was removed. The main reason might have been it being deemed sexist.

Aww, too bad. I thought it was a fun little easter egg and mini game to optimise your workforce sex ballance. Oh well.

 

As for the rest of you... It seems there is so much more to catch up on in terms of changes than just women not buffing anymore. Well as of next month have the time to catch up on all of it Thanks for all the comments though!

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

22 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

It boosts by 2% within its range. But they cost the amount of 2 units. So you're better off just making two CS (or 4 women for that matter) unless you have 100 units in the aura, which isn't possible a lot of the time because of where the res are located or your total pop size. 

Indeed. Originally I had the boost at 5%. 

[chrstgtr]

9 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Indeed. Originally I had the boost at 5%. 

Yeah, I know a bunch of changes happened from what it originally was. For what it is worth, 5% is what I initially thought it should be. I would need to think more about it, though. 

Personally, I would prefer an even more radical change where we make them like healers, which are really weak at first and then really strong after leveling up. I think that would be a cool "invest now for big benefits later" feature. It would also encourage more p2 action because it would make the Han player vulnerable early but strong late. 

Lots of options. 

[Lion.Kanzen]

On 26/08/2022 at 11:32 AM, hyperion said:

sexist

Let's deny biology...

Why not rework that bonus but in a cultural way.

 

Distinction of clothing and grooming or perhaps courtship customs.

You like someone and you follow cultural norms to get married and that gives you the bonus.