==[TASK]== Handheld Battering Ram

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

All civs now get a battering ram, and I think it would be good for the base game to have a simple "handheld" battering ram for some civs. Or perhaps all civs get this handheld version in Phase II, with a "Covered Ram" upgrade in Phase III for some civs.

The Norse "Portable Ram" in Age of Mythology:

 

Something like that, but with 4 dudes.

Delenda Est has one from Millennium AD, but the ram log looks way too big and the way they hold it doesn't look right. The log doesn't seem to have weight, while the Norse one does.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

I have the same idea since you implemented it in your mod.

 

I was thinking 3 levels.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Medium, cover or only little.

[AIEND]

If not specially manufactured machinery. Then the ram may usually just be a log with no metal wrapped around it.

[Lion.Kanzen]

having 3 levels of ram wouldn't make it feel so OP.

[AIEND]

1 小时前，Lion.Kanzen 说：

拥有 3 个级别的 ram 不会让人感觉如此 OP。

Two levels are enough.

[Lion.Kanzen]

14 minutes ago, AIEND said:

Two levels are enough.

Maybe...

[AIEND]

9 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

也许...

Actually I think it doesn't matter if there is no upgrade, just lower the HP and damage of the battering ram and make it cheaper.

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 minutes ago, AIEND said:

Actually I think it doesn't matter if there is no upgrade, just lower the HP and damage of the battering ram and make it cheaper.

 Cheap and easy to destroy. You will need several soldiers to protect it.

[AIEND]

刚才，Lion.Kanzen 说：

便宜又容易破坏。 你需要几个士兵来保护它。

It has to be guarded by soldiers, this thing is not a tank, no one wants it to go on a rampage.

[Fabius]

5 hours ago, AIEND said:

It has to be guarded by soldiers, this thing is not a tank, no one wants it to go on a rampage.

Ram army go brrrrrrrrrrrr  

[Fabius]

More seriously, there are only three phases not four. So a light ram in second phase would make it far more meaningful than the current "everyone rush phase 3 as fast they jolly well can" I don't see why everyone should not get a tree trunk hauled by a couple guys. It does not take a rocket scientist to tell a couple guys to pick up a random log and start smacking the local neighbor's door with it. The difference would be much lower pierce lower since they are just a couple guys with a log, so shooting them would be just as effective as smacking them with pointy sticks and swords.

[AIEND]

1 小时前，Fabius 说：

更严重的是，只有三个阶段而不是四个阶段。 因此，第二阶段的轻型公羊将比当前的“每个人都尽可能快地冲到第三阶段”更有意义。我不明白为什么每个人都不应该让几个人拖着树干。 不需要火箭科学家就可以告诉几个人随便拿起一根原木并开始用它敲打当地邻居的门。 区别会低得多，因为他们只是几个拿着圆木的家伙，所以射击他们就像用尖棍和剑打他们一样有效。

Yes, unless the opponent has no projectile weapons at all, soldiers without any protection will be shot into hedgehogs.

[Fabius]

17 minutes ago, AIEND said:

Yes, unless the opponent has no projectile weapons at all, soldiers without any protection will be shot into hedgehogs.

Yes. At this stage our main objective is to convince as many of the development team to agree to our ideas as we can. General rule of thumb should be short and concise ideas with as much logical foundation as possible.

[AIEND]

19 分钟前，法比尤斯说：

是的。 在这个阶段，我们的主要目标是说服尽可能多的开发团队同意我们的想法。 一般的经验法则应该是简短而简洁的想法，并具有尽可能多的逻辑基础。

So a battering ram with a roof is the minimum, otherwise it is better to let the soldiers directly take the sledgehammer and the logging axe to demolish the building (some games have such a combat sapper setting).
But as far as battering rams are concerned, we need the minimum battering rams of P2 and the advanced battering rams of P3, the latter may be wrapped in more rawhide, use more hardwood and metal parts, which is heavier , slower and stronger.
As for the possibility of joining P4 in the future? I think if there is a technical upgrade in P4, it should be reserved for more complex siege weapons such as catapults.

[Fabius]

22 minutes ago, AIEND said:

So a battering ram with a roof is the minimum, otherwise it is better to let the soldiers directly take the sledgehammer and the logging axe to demolish the building (some games have such a combat sapper setting).
But as far as battering rams are concerned, we need the minimum battering rams of P2 and the advanced battering rams of P3, the latter may be wrapped in more rawhide, use more hardwood and metal parts, which is heavier , slower and stronger.
As for the possibility of joining P4 in the future? I think if there is a technical upgrade in P4, it should be reserved for more complex siege weapons such as catapults.

Alright, that is agreeable  

simpler ram construction entity in P2 and then a more advanced piece of machinary for P3. 

[hyperion]

4 hours ago, Fabius said:

Yes. At this stage our main objective is to convince as many of the development team to agree to our ideas as we can. General rule of thumb should be short and concise ideas with as much logical foundation as possible.

While there is capturing is probably hard to make this unit really useful and would be mostly obsolete if there was the arsonist attack. Still the only real reason which might really block this is the lack of quality models. So finding an capable artist is the hard part here. If you want to make them anything but stronger club man with higher cost and change half the game alongside their introduction the lower the chance it will be accepted.

[Fabius]

11 minutes ago, hyperion said:

While there is capturing is probably hard to make this unit really useful and would be mostly obsolete if there was the arsonist attack. Still the only real reason which might really block this is the lack of quality models. So finding an capable artist is the hard part here. If you want to make them anything but stronger club man with higher cost and change half the game alongside their introduction the lower the chance it will be accepted.

Adding a phase 2 ram is not changing half the game and I hardly think creating a stripped down ram model is hard. Going with Aiend on that one. Phase 2 has no meaning currently, unless you are going for merc cavalry as carthage. We need more diversification in phase 2 options. 

 

[hyperion]

7 minutes ago, Fabius said:

Adding a phase 2 ram is not changing half the game and I hardly think creating a stripped down ram model is hard. Going with Aiend on that one. Phase 2 has no meaning currently, unless you are going for merc cavalry as carthage. We need more diversification in phase 2 options. 

This goes to show the usefulness of P2 siege unit, you don't seem to even beware they already exist for a long time in the form of club man.

[Lion.Kanzen]

The first phases of the rams could be taken down by a CC.

But.... They could serve as a bait for the CC to focus on shooting the rams while other units capture the CC.

It would be a mattress effect. Or cover effect vere with 5-6 rams you can capture CC, They could be more if we lower their power more, but they would be cheaper.

[alre]

p2 club men are too costy in metal, rams are much more convenient. clubmen rush is almost never tried (although sometimes it is) but rams rush would definitely be a thing if rams were just moved to p2, at the expense of civs which don't have good ram counters in the early game. if only 0AD went over this silly thing about pierce+hack damage for polearms, moving rams to p2 would not be a problem and there would be an increase in strat differentiation.

Edited April 26, 2022 by alre

[alre]

@Lion.Kanzen's post just triggered a fun thought: if you wanted to completely destroy a building, you would do it by hand, but if you wanted to conquer it, you may want to use a ram to get inside.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

I think this would be fine, with some considerations.

IMO, the ram should cost at least 175 wood, 75 metal despite the ram maybe not having any metal on-board. In addition it should take the usual pop space. 

The unit should be for players who are confident they can take down a player in a phase 2 fight and are willing to spend extra metal in p2 to do it. The issue is if the attack fails then it would be very costly and the target might reach p3 before you.  I like this trade-off and it would make people who usually boom through p2 a little more concious of the defenses they might need/want. 

It seems the main task is which civs should get this and from where to train it. Also the unit's hp, armor, and damage.

• I think all civs should get it maybe with a few exceptions, but it should be more viable for romans, spartans, and macedonians. Perhaps spartan one has small speed bonus, roman one smaller cost, and macedonian one greater pierce armor.
• 3 pop space
• 1/2 crush attack as full ram
• comes from barracks for most civs, but mace get them from siege workshop they get to build in p2 ( @Dizaka)
• same default speed as regular ram 
• 175 wood 75 metal
• current ram has 50 pierce armor, this would go down to 15 (or 20 for mace)
• also, no garrisoning

I am thinking this will add to gameplay and create a greater diversity in attack times and strategies. It will also make walls a bit more appealing in some situations. 

@alre I see your point about clubmen, it would be sad if they were useless. IMO we should reduce the crush armor of heavily armored units so clubs and axes can be effective against those classes of units. the idea was that these crushing weapons can cave in the armor. That way clubmen would better for taking out fringe buildings like houses towers, as well as battling other units, and p2 rams would be better for a fully fledged battle.

Edited April 26, 2022 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[Fabius]

3 hours ago, hyperion said:

This goes to show the usefulness of P2 siege unit, you don't seem to even beware they already exist for a long time in the form of club man.

I know about clubmen, however you need a lot of them to be effective, the cost factor alone keeps them as a gimmick unit. A single ram is worth more and costs less.

[Fabius]

29 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I think this would be fine, with some considerations.

IMO, the ram should cost at least 175 wood, 75 metal despite the ram maybe not having any metal on-board. In addition it should take the usual pop space. 

The unit should be for players who are confident they can take down a player in a phase 2 fight and are willing to spend extra metal in p2 to do it. The issue is if the attack fails then it would be very costly and the target might reach p3 before you.  I like this trade-off and it would make people who usually boom through p2 a little more concious of the defenses they might need/want. 

It seems the main task is which civs should get this and from where to train it. Also the unit's hp, armor, and damage.

• I think all civs should get it maybe with a few exceptions, but it should be more viable for romans, spartans, and macedonians. Perhaps spartan one has small speed bonus, roman one smaller cost, and macedonian one greater pierce armor.
• 3 pop space
• 1/2 crush attack as full ram
• comes from barracks for most civs, but mace get them from siege workshop they get to build in p2 ( @Dizaka)
• same default speed as regular ram 
• 175 wood 75 metal
• current ram has 50 pierce armor, this would go down to 15 (or 20 for mace)
• also, no garrisoning

I am thinking this will add to gameplay and create a greater diversity in attack times and strategies. It will also make walls a bit more appealing in some situations. 

@alre I see your point about clubmen, it would be sad if they were useless. IMO we should reduce the crush armor of heavily armored units so clubs and axes can be effective against those classes of units. the idea was that these crushing weapons can cave in the armor. That way clubmen would better for taking out fringe buildings like houses towers, as well as battling other units, and p2 rams would be better for a fully fledged battle.

Nicely laid out  

I am curious as to why units have such high crush armour, Is it to prevent one shotting by elephants? Catapults? 

All civs can already build siege workshops, also making it come from barracks but for Macedonia requires a workshop will weaken it for Macedonia as nearly all players will already have a barracks by default, better that everyone can build a workshop second age if they have this mini ram available.