[Discussion]Future the design and Vision for 0 A.D

[borg-]

As long as we are focused only on balance, we will be chasing our own tail. 0 a.d has reached a stage where it needs a design overhaul. A design document is needed to guide the next steps. The idea of starting with a generic civilization, and then being able to choose which civilization you want to steer towards is extremely fun. I would start with a standard civilization and then the second phase I could choose which of the 14 civilizations I would like to play with, with their respective bonuses. This would add a very interesting element of surprise to players, especially in team games.
If I had to choose one idea, I would certainly go that way.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

31 minutes ago, borg- said:

As long as we are focused only on balance, we will be chasing our own tail. 0 a.d has reached a stage where it needs a design overhaul. A design document is needed to guide the next steps. The idea of starting with a generic civilization, and then being able to choose which civilization you want to steer towards is extremely fun. I would start with a standard civilization and then the second phase I could choose which of the 14 civilizations I would like to play with, with their respective bonuses. This would add a very interesting element of surprise to players, especially in team games.
If I had to choose one idea, I would certainly go that way.

@borg- given that p1 is such a critical time but also quite a long process. Do you think it makes sense to achieve this goal by having an "earlier" phase? Something even more rudimentary where only women or maybe some near-universal unit like spearmen can be trained and houses/ storehouses/farmsteads built. A 200 food 100 wood 20 second up time to p1 would be ideal because it gives ranges of options, someone trying to rush would click p1 very soon, but someone trying to boom a little would wait a little before p1. 1 or 2 p0 buildings would be necessary for phase 1 click. Perhaps we could also make different civs have different costs of time or res to click p1 (maybe some civs cost stone? or metal?). Current unique starting units would appear at cc upon phase up (like spearcav, camel archer, han swordcav, maur elephant, kushite healer) and would be seen as a tiny buff for that civ. I think it makes sense for this first phase to take no longer than 5 minutes, and for only the baskets upgrade for berries available. 

• I do think that such a change would make it even more important to balance the civs.
• We could also make p0 without the civ selection phase 1 research
• If we make p0, we could allow blacksmith in p1. I think that this early purchase of blacksmith would be much more expensive relative to blacksmith in p2 which people tend to spam without thinking of costs. This would provide some early boom/military differences that can be exploited (remember booming=turtling discussion?)
• I think this would make rushing a more interesting strategy too, because rushing in p0 would be challenging, and you would see some drastically different populations/ phase up times early on in the game. 

Edited April 21, 2022 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[Lion.Kanzen]

48 minutes ago, borg- said:

As long as we are focused only on balance, we will be chasing our own tail. 0 a.d has reached a stage where it needs a design overhaul. A design document is needed to guide the next steps. The idea of starting with a generic civilization, and then being able to choose which civilization you want to steer towards is extremely fun. I would start with a standard civilization and then the second phase I could choose which of the 14 civilizations I would like to play with, with their respective bonuses. This would add a very interesting element of surprise to players, especially in team games.
If I had to choose one idea, I would certainly go that way.

generic in what sense?

You say customize meanwhile you play.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

8 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

generic in what sense?

You say customize meanwhile you play.

I think he means to accomplish what AoE2 only did visually. All the civs look the same in first age and differentiate from there.

You would select civ by clicking p1 upgrade for that civ is the way I understand it.

Edited April 21, 2022 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[alre]

2 hours ago, Gurken Khan said:

Interesting. One time I pointed out that something could be done about the worker elephant's helpfulness, the reply I got was 'it was decided to have it skill-based', meaning microed.

yeah. it's pointless to have more details on the design documents, ifthey're not going to be used anyway. I recon that some solutions that avoid micro may be bad for other reasons, but it's against the doc to argue that micro should be empowered for its own sake, and still people sometimes argue exactly that, and noone ever cares to bring up the design docs.

Edited April 21, 2022 by alre

[borg-]

52 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Genérico em que sentido?

Você diz personalizar enquanto joga.

You start the game like in the dark ages of aoe1. You can choose from three generic civilizations. All civilizations look very similar (only a few differences provided by branching models). Civilizations share the same units, women (food), basic spearmen (food/wood), javelins (food/wood) and a scout (food). Scout is like a spear cavalry, able to fight and be trained in age one. At that moment we will have a good rock/paper/scissors for all civilizations. Each of these three civilizations has some very basic bonuses, one of the civilizations would have a bonus for economy, another for aggression and another for defense, pleasing all players styles. When ready to pass the stage you can choose which civilization you want to evolve to, if you choose Sparta for example, you will have some bonuses like as stronger women, faster and stronger infantry.

Edited April 21, 2022 by borg-

[Lion.Kanzen]

7 minutes ago, borg- said:

You start the game like in the dark ages of aoe1. You can choose from three generic civilizations. All civilizations look very similar (only a few differences provided by branching models). Civilizations share the same units, women (food), basic spearmen (food/wood), javelins (food/wood) and a scout (food). Scout is like a spear cavalry, able to fight and be trained in age one. At that moment we will have a good rock/paper/scissors for all civilizations. Each of these three civilizations has some very basic bonuses, one of the civilizations would have a bonus for economy, another for aggression and another for defense, pleasing all players styles. When ready to pass the stage you can choose which civilization you want to evolve to, if you choose Sparta for example, you will have some bonuses like as stronger women, faster and stronger infantry.

It sounds a bit like Delenda Est mod with EE.

I prefer it to be generic in other ways.

They would have to be regional generics.

Greeks, North Africans, Far Asians...

[Gurken Khan]

On 19/04/2022 at 6:20 PM, hyperion said:

Without moderation it won't work

So you're saying it won't work here? I was socialized in forums with rules (off topic, full quotes...*) and actual enforcement, here it is bordering on non-moderation. This thread is all over the place; not that I don't like the p0 idea, but this thread was supposed to be about something else.

*Backseat moderation was also frowned upon. I'll show myself out.

[borg-]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Parece um pouco com o mod Delenda Est com EE.

Eu prefiro que seja genérico de outras maneiras.

Teriam que ser genéricos regionais.

Gregos, Norte Africanos, Extremos Asiáticos...

It can be that way too, instead of having 3 generic civilizations at the beginning, we can start with Greeks and then choose which Greek civilization we want to expand.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, borg- said:

It can be that way too, instead of having 3 generic civilizations at the beginning, we can start with Greeks and then choose which Greek civilization we want to expand.

Yo debería escribir en español cuando te hablo, es menos difícil de traducir.

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

3 minutes ago, borg- said:

It can be that way too, instead of having 3 generic civilizations at the beginning, we can start with Greeks and then choose which Greek civilization we want to expand.

Aha that’s got me more interested. 
 

If the generic civ starts with skirmishers and spear men in p0, does the civ have those in p1 too or can they have their original starting units?

Also is p0 a valid way to describe this? Or do you imagine this in p1 as it currently exists?

1 hour ago, borg- said:

very basic bonuses, one of the civilizations would have a bonus for economy, another for aggression and another for defense, pleasing all players styles

I would be fine with this as long as those “regional civilization” bonuses are not something more deciding than the overall civ and team bonuses. I would dislike it if for example all the African civs became boom, all the Greeks became rush, all asian civ become turtle.  I think these bonuses should be important in p0 while the civs are grouped like this, but wear off or go away in future phases. Cheaper palisades in p0 could be a good example of a bonus for a regional group that does not influence late-game civs distinction too much.

[maroder]

On 17/04/2022 at 1:43 PM, Stan` said:

Please refrain from discussing "actual" balancing in this thread.

I agree with this getting off-topic

[Lion.Kanzen]

@Stan` split the topic some like "[Discussion]Future the design and Vision for 0 A.D"

[alre]

you know what's funny? if 0 AD went trough the kind of rework borg- asks, right now the first two groups to choose from would be greek and non-greek.

[AIEND]

1 小时前，alre 说：

你知道什么好笑吗？ 如果 0 AD 经历了博格要求的那种返工，那么现在前两个可供选择的组将是希腊人和非希腊人。

It should be said that taking the Balkan Greeks as a basic template does not work, because the Balkan Greeks are relatively primitive in weapons and tactics, and they lack many necessary units that should be counted into the basic system.

Just like we look at the technology tree of AoE2, most factions will have a choice in this complete technology tree. They usually only have some of these technologies and units. The more complete the technology tree, the stronger the faction. The more incomplete a faction's tech tree is, the more it needs various civilization rewards or team rewards to make up for the "deficiencies".

The problem with using the Balkan Greeks as a reference to a generic civilization is that you're trying to make their mutilated tech tree itself "complete", i.e. make the parts they lack irrelevant. You have to make archers weaker than javelinmen, make war elephants a replacement for battering rams, and make those important techs and units dispensable so that the Balkan Greeks don't look weak.

A basic universal civilization should have most types of units, should have archers, horse archers, chariots, war elephants, ballistas, Seleucus is a good example (real Syracuse is also very good example).

I'm not against "starting with the Greeks", but I am against starting with the Balkan Greeks.

[Stan`]

Split. I should have more forums moderators...

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, Stan` said:

Split. I should have more forums moderators...

thank you.I could moderate the order of the forums, but not the people.

[Lion.Kanzen]

for the art department it will be difficult.

It could be that if starting phase = 0 is implemented as. New game mode.

[Gurken Khan]

52 minutes ago, AIEND said:

It should be said that taking the Balkan Greeks as a basic template does not work, because the Balkan Greeks are relatively primitive in weapons and tactics, and they lack many necessary units that should be counted into the basic system.

I don't think taking a primitive civ is a problem, as I would expect any p0 civ to be primitive. The advanced stuff come with the later phases.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Phase 0 would be peasants and poorly trained militias. similar to classic AoE.

The first phase would be found(settle) a village.

The requirement would be 1000 food.

It would be like War Selection.

 

 

 

[AIEND]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

阶段 0 将是农民和训练有素的民兵。 类似于经典的AOE。

第一阶段将找到（定居）一个村庄。

要求是 1000 个食物。

这就像战争选择。

 

 

 

This looks like nomadic mode in Age of Empires 3, which I don't think makes much sense technically. The main problem now is that some of the content of P1 (such as cavalry) and P3 (such as siege) should be moved to P2, and the battle should start from P2.

[AIEND]

1 hour ago, Gurken Khan said:

我不认为采用原始文明是一个问题，因为我希望任何 p0 文明都是原始的。 高级的东西伴随着后期阶段。

You should read what I said completely. I am talking about a general civilization structure. A standard civilization technology tree should be complete, not incomplete. On this basis, all factions tend to be "imperfect", so that it can be balanced.
Factions with only javelinmen and no archers are flawed, and factions with only archers and no javelinmen are flawed, but flawed doesn't mean weak.

[Lion.Kanzen]

11 minutes ago, AIEND said:

The main problem now is that some of the content of P1 (such as cavalry) and P3 (such as siege) should be moved to P2, and the battle should start from P2.

it will be stay... for now.... my idea is P0(phase 0) the units arent even great doing normal, will be inmigrants, weaken(by war) and poors.

is like nomad but slower, because they are less experienced than farmer o hunter.

this will give the excuse that they will have to live from 0.

They will have to learn to do everything.
technologies will be more rudimentary.

It will be a survival stage. It will be as if a citizen escapes to the forest and has 0 knowledge of agriculture, hunting, etc.

[AIEND]

5 分钟前，Lion.Kanzen 说：

它会留下......现在......我的想法是P0（第0阶段）单位甚至不是很好，正常工作，将是移民，削弱（通过战争）和穷人。

就像游牧民族，但速度较慢，因为他们的经验不如农民或猎人。

这将提供他们必须从 0 开始生活的借口。

他们必须学会做任何事情。
技术将更加初级。

这将是一个生存阶段。 就好像一个公民逃到森林里，农业、狩猎等知识为 0。

Unlike the Age of Empires series, 0AD needs to have CC to provide territory to build resource recovery buildings, you can't wander and hunt in the wild, trying to collect more resources than your enemies. What you can do is very limited - pick a place with gold mines, berry bushes and stone quarries to build your first CC.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, AIEND said:

Unlike the Age of Empires series, 0AD needs to have CC to provide territory to build resource recovery buildings, you can't wander and hunt in the wild, trying to collect more resources than your enemies. What you can do is very limited - pick a place with gold mines, berry bushes and stone quarries to build your first CC.

may be a cart very slow cart as dropsite, the villagers will be more weakers than standard. the CC will be a big house.

some time ago I wanted to bring that slow development of the aoe, I didn't implement it, but the idea is to start in a poor and underdeveloped settlement.

I live in a poor country and I know how it is.

 

this hellhole becomes into a CC.