What do we think of citizen cavalry archers.

[LetswaveaBook]

Jofursloft uploaded a video where Valihr went for cavalry archers. I think it shows that the cavalry did little damage, while in theory it looks attractive. From my own experience I know that unupgraded rank1 mounted archers miss a lot of their shots (champion chariots have a spread of 1, which makes them a lot better).

 

 

[alre]

I think they are not that bad. camel archers are still better, in general, than spear cav. however, p2 horse archers compare badly to sword cav which is OP.

I'm not sure how they compare to jav cav.

Edited October 18, 2021 by alre

[Jofursloft]

I think archer cavalry is a good unit. It is not supposed to deal a lot of damage: it's mostly and annoying unit which purpose is to keep the enemy idle and harass his wood/mineral eco. In my opinion it's not a unit that can win a battle, so while you train some of these archers to slow the enemy eco down you should train a strong army in the back (skirms, slings, sword cavs, or any units that deal much damage). In the 1v1 I showed in the video Vali had only archer and spearmen infantry in his base, which is why when I attacked him with merchenary units mixed to slingers and spearmen he had no counter to that. If he began to train skirmishers and maybe waited to have 10/15 cav archers before attacking me he could probably survive better my P2 attack. 

[Gurken Khan]

I never produce horse archers. I'd rather take the damage than the range.

Ever since I saw an camel archer chase a gazelle literally over a whole normal sized map I resent them. Playing as ptol I begrudgingly take them as half of my ranged cav because I usually can't afford mercs only.

[Jofursloft]

2 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

Ever since I saw an camel archer chase a gazelle literally over a whole normal sized map I resent them.

Take 1 camel and he won't deal any damage to a woodline with 40 units working. Take 15 of them and they will be both annoying and lethal if microed well (they can kill a skirmisher in 1 shot and a spearmen in 2-3 seconds). In P2 if the enemy is booming (unless he is an archer civ) he has no units to counter them, and doing melee cavarly as counter takes at least 2 mins (stables+training time), so it's a good way to slow down the opponent

[Dakara]

i think we are ok in their job

[alre]

guys, do you use jav cav after p1? I feel they are pretty useless aside hunting women.

[Jofursloft]

53 minutes ago, alre said:

guys, do you use jav cav after p1? I feel they are pretty useless aside hunting women.

I use them a lot mostly in tgs when I play with kush/maury. Mixing them with regular spearmen is soo good

They can be used for P2 rushes too

[Yekaterina]

56 minutes ago, alre said:

guys, do you use jav cav after p1?

Yes! Cavalry javelineers can be used to replace infantry javelineers. They are more cost efficient (in terms of wood) and offers more attack and health, so why not! If I get Kush, Carthage I will be using these as my main ranged force. 

About cavalry archers, they are only deadly in P1 and P2. In P3 it is hard to do damage with them but it is very effective at making your enemy ragequit  

[alre]

mmmh I tried that but I didn't like it. they are short ranged and easily reached by enemy spearmen. food is slow to gather unless you make corrals, which are kind of off meta in a25. but of course kush don't really have alternatives.

[alre]

oh wait, they have noba merc skirms and maces! you prefer to make cav?

Edited October 18, 2021 by alre

[KKaslana]

43 minutes ago, alre said:

oh wait, they have noba merc skirms and maces! you prefer to make cav?

If I could afford cavlary, I would prioritise it before mercenary infantry for their superior HP values and manoeuvrebility. 

My approach to playing the Kushites would be using a mixture of archers, swordsmen, pikemen, elephants and cavalry. They allow for a variety of unit types and different strategies, and I would like to mix up different units so that I am prepared for anything that my enemy is planning for me. With that being said, I am not the expert at playing Kushites; I would much prefer to use the Macedonians, Romans and Spartans. 

I may upload a Youtube video detailing how I play with the Kushites if there is a demand for it.

 

Christoffel-Symbol 

Edited October 18, 2021 by KKaslana

[Yekaterina]

15 minutes ago, KKaslana said:

I may upload a Youtube video detailing how I play with the Kushites if there is a demand for it.

You do a Kushite build order and I do a Cart one or Macedon one? Used to like the Macedonians but no preference now. 

[KKaslana]

9 minutes ago, Yekaterina said:

Cart one or Macedon

You can do the Carthaginian one, since you are a big fan of them. I will do the Macedonians instead. 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

I have observed only one player so far make out of (non-camel) mounted archers successfully and this was none other than @Philip the Swaggerless. I spectated him for 2 games (TGs) and on the second one his enemy (spartans) was slowed down by the fluid mass of cav archers, but eventually realized he could tank the damage and simply use CS spearmen push the cav archers all the way back to their base before taking significant losses. At Phil's base, the sparta player simply brought in rams and destroyed the base while the cav archers had to stand aside and gradually deal damage to the mass of melee units.

It seems, like with infantry archers, that they could be greatly improved by the implementation of "area attack" or "attack-ground". This would allow them to use their full range and for cav archers, maneuverability, to attack the optimal areas of the enemy army, rather than only the strong melee in front.

Edited October 18, 2021 by BreakfastBurrito_007

[LetswaveaBook]

10 hours ago, alre said:

guys, do you use jav cav after p1? I feel they are pretty useless aside hunting women.

I think people underrate how good a combination of jav cav+melee cav is. The jav cav deal so much damage and the melee cav just can function a bit as a damage sponge. I enjoy going for the macedonian merc cav in p2 during TGs. If you go for merc cav, it is nice to have a stable for the upgrades and then you can use the stable for unit production. If you are curious for the results I used jav cav in all these uploads:

Also in the weirdjokes=boomer game we see BreakfastBurrito_007 using jav cav with the seleucid hero. At that point it is off course difficult to say if the cavalry would be more efficient than a push with siege and infantry, but the cavalry do have their advantages in some situations.

[Yekaterina]

42 minutes ago, LetswaveaBook said:

I think people underrate how good a combination of jav cav+melee cav is. The jav cav deal so much damage and the melee cav just can function a bit as a damage sponge. I enjoy going for the macedonian merc cav in p2 during TGs. If you go for merc cav, it is nice to have a stable for the upgrades and then you can use the stable for unit production. If you are curious for the results I used jav cav in all these uploads

In A24 I was able to win an undermanned battle with jav cav + spearmen without full upgrades. I had 3/4 of the number of my enemy yet I still decimated their army. And it is easy to play as well,  no need for great micro. Just set enrollment point close to the front line and click on cav and spearmen in their respective barracks. 

In A25 it is less effective because the game is faster paced and there is not enough time for the cavalry to arrive before all your melee are dead. But if you are able to hold the line then it is still devastating for the enemy. 

[BreakfastBurrito_007]

@LetswaveaBook I totally agree about having CS melee cav with jav cav being a great combo, that is yet another bonus to the iberian cavalry. The lack of a cs spearcav make seleucid cavalry a bit awkward, but they are still good in cavalry overall.

[Huffman3829]

In honesty, I admit to liking Archer Cavalry. But in essence, they work similar to Pikemen; they only preform well in large groups, and, unlike some units, can't function in small groups. If you do use Archer Cavalry in small groups, before you do any real damage, most of your numbers die. Archers in general work in ways similar to this.