Yekaterina Posted July 7, 2021 Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 When firing, the cavalry archers currently implemented ingame has to stop fully, aim, then fire. This is great for taking an accurate shot but not necessarily historically accurate for all civilisations. Some cavalry archers like the Parthians could aim and fire while the horse is running at full speed. Although not always accurate, it is still deadly as a large number of cavalry means continuous arrow shower from all directions and the agility of the cavalry will save them from charging infantry. I am not the first person to suggest this, here are the posts: On 06/07/2021 at 12:20 AM, Dragonoar said: Instead of the horse that rotates it's the guy riding the horse, so archer cavs behave more realistically also allows for parthian shot and run n gun gameplay a la horse archers in total war (which could be annoying and/or OP). 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekaterina Posted July 7, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 Here is a demonstration video that I made. These cavalry archers are already in the bellum mod. you can try it for yourself. archer cav.webm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekaterina Posted July 7, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 Some references: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parthian_shot https://www.kavehfarrokh.com/heritage/parthian-horses-and-parthian-horse-archers/ The efficacy of this cavalry archer is best demonstrated at the battle of Carrhae: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyrrhicVictoryGuy Posted July 7, 2021 Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 (edited) How would one counter these units? Wouldn't they be frustrating to go against? Total war has it so foot archers counter these mounted troops while other RTS have units like these that are made of paper... Edited July 7, 2021 by PyrrhicVictoryGuy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekaterina Posted July 7, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 Speaking of Carrhae, why is Parthians not in 0AD? Why has no-one mentioned them yet? Also the Sassanids, Kushan etc 2 minutes ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said: How would one counter these units? Wouldn't they frustrating to go against? Total war has it so foot archers counter these mounted troops while other RTS have units like these that are made of paper... We can make them slower and weaker. Also massively decrease their accuracy. Spear cavalry should take on them just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyrrhicVictoryGuy Posted July 7, 2021 Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 This a hunch but slowing their speed so that spear cav beats them by 0.5 meters a second plus innacuracy might just be enough. Afterall we want people to actually use these. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freagarach Posted July 7, 2021 Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 You mean something like this: ? We're so close, yet so far away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekaterina Posted July 7, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 5 minutes ago, Freagarach said: We're so close, yet so far away. That is exactly what I am on about. I will implement it for ele archers as well I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreakfastBurrito_007 Posted July 7, 2021 Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 (edited) @Yekaterina This looks great. I am thinking this mechanic will go far to differentiate cavalry archers from regular archers in use. Maybe as archer cavalry rank up, they can shoot more accurately or at a higher fire rate while moving, as obviously it would take a lot of experience to improve with shooting while galloping. Four questions for everybody who wants to contribute an opinion: Should moving while shooting be less accurate, less range, less damage, or less fire rate? Should mounted archers improve this ability as they rank up? Should cavalry/chariot javelineers be capable of this as well?, and should the mechanic have special rules for them? Should chariot based units be better at shooting while moving? I would argue sure since chariot units are champions, and they are already expensive. I think it is important to make sure that there are advantages to shooting while moving and shooting while stationary, this way it is a more skillful gameplay decision on how to use ranged cavalry. Edited July 7, 2021 by BreakfastBurrito_007 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekaterina Posted July 7, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 49 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said: Should moving while shooting be less accurate, less range, less damage, or less fire rate? Yes, unless we increase the training time of these cavalry units to reflect that real humans need more practice to master shooting on horseback than stood still. 50 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said: Should mounted archers improve this ability as they rank up? Of course, as they rank up it means they have gained more experience and hence more likely to be skilled. 50 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said: Should cavalry/chariot javelineers be capable of this as well?, and should the mechanic have special rules for them? Some civs should. But please remember that some chariots were used to charge at infantry formation and scatter them, while others were used for ranged harassment. This leads to another idea: chariot differentiation. 52 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said: Should chariot based units be better at shooting while moving? I would argue sure since chariot units are champions, and they are already expensive. They do deserve to be accurate even if they are moving. But to prevent them from being OP I would recommend decreasing their damage. 36 pierce for Brit Chariots is ridiculous if this mechanism is implemented. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekaterina Posted July 7, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 I have implemented the turret mechanic for all chariots and cavalry archers: chariot1.webm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Player of 0AD Posted July 7, 2021 Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 I'm against changes. Cavalry archers are not too weak. It might be more realistic if they can also shoot while moving... but its bad for the game, because that would be totally OP and annoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekaterina Posted July 7, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 2 minutes ago, Player of 0AD said: It might be more realistic if they can also shoot while moving... but its bad for the game, because that would be totally OP and annoying. yes, but we nerf the arrows by increasing their spread to 3 or 4 (you can't target that well if you are on a horse unless you have trained hard) Also we decrease the range and damage of arrows (might not hit directly) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonoar Posted July 7, 2021 Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 I was thinking of the one in the thread @Freagarach mentioned, but instead of the whole person, it's just the upper body that rotates. Functionally, though, your solution would do the job as well, I think. 5 hours ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said: How would one counter these units? Wouldn't they frustrating to go against? Total war has it so foot archers counter these mounted troops while other RTS have units like these that are made of paper... What about giving them shorter range than the regular archer? In other RTS these kinds of units are only good for dancing and kiting. If you give take away the range then they can't kite. (can still dance tho) Total war's counter works because of the unit size. 160 foot archers vs 60 horse archers at max. 2 hours ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said: @Yekaterina This looks great. I am thinking this mechanic will go far to differentiate cavalry archers from regular archers in use. Maybe as archer cavalry rank up, they can shoot more accurately or at a higher fire rate while moving, as obviously it would take a lot of experience to improve with shooting while galloping. Four questions for everybody who wants to contribute an opinion: Should moving while shooting be less accurate, less range, less damage, or less fire rate? Should mounted archers improve this ability as they rank up? Should cavalry/chariot javelineers be capable of this as well?, and should the mechanic have special rules for them? Should chariot based units be better at shooting while moving? I would argue sure since chariot units are champions, and they are already expensive. I think it is important to make sure that there are advantages to shooting while moving and shooting while stationary, this way it is a more skillful gameplay decision on how to use ranged cavalry. I disagree. They're horse archers not dragoons. If a player uses them to shoot while stationary, then they're playing it wrong. And watching their horse archers get rekt by foot archers should teach them. Should be as simple as that. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion.Kanzen Posted July 7, 2021 Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 5 hours ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said: How would one counter these units? Wouldn't they be frustrating to go against? Total war has it so foot archers counter these mounted troops while other RTS have units like these that are made of paper... according to the history Parthians They were defeated by the Romans after Carrhae bringing more missile troops as slingers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyrrhicVictoryGuy Posted July 7, 2021 Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 1 minute ago, Dragonoar said: I disagree. They're horse archers not dragoons. If a player uses them to shoot while stationary, then they're playing it wrong. And watching their horse archers get rekt by foot archers should teach them. Should be as simple as that. Nam PTSD intensifies.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyrrhicVictoryGuy Posted July 7, 2021 Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 Well the easiest way to make missile infantry reckt them is to give them a dmg multiplier.... but i know that this type of solution is not favoured by the comunity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonoar Posted July 7, 2021 Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 @Yekaterina, can you show us a video of 5 of these guys fighting against say 10 foot archers? Are they really that OP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekaterina Posted July 7, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 9 minutes ago, Dragonoar said: @Yekaterina, can you show us a video of 5 of these guys fighting against say 10 foot archers? Are they really that OP? Ok. I will upload it 1 hour later. I don't have gpu processing so it will take really long to render anything. :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BreakfastBurrito_007 Posted July 7, 2021 Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Player of 0AD said: I'm against changes. Cavalry archers are not too weak. It might be more realistic if they can also shoot while moving... but its bad for the game, because that would be totally OP and annoying. It is true that horse archers are more powerful than regular archers, and adding this mechanic to them will make them more powerful. However, it is undeniable that there is potential added value for gameplay as well as realism. Which brings me to Dragonoar's point below. 1 hour ago, Dragonoar said: What about giving them shorter range than the regular archer? Horse riding takes balance and it is my guess that it is harder to shoot at the same rate as when you are stationary. Also I think bigger bows are stronger (provided other construction qualities are constant), and would tend to shoot farther, so it makes sense in general that horse archers should have shorter range. This is not a balance problem since horse archers are faster than regular archers. I feel going for a 1.5x multiplier to attack repeat time and an accuracy nerf while moving should be enough to balance the "shooting while moving" aspect. @Player of 0AD I know that horse archers are pretty OP in a24 and likely a25, but doing this is a way to fix them in the long term. The goal is to make the unit more distinct in usage, and to add skill depth to the unit. We are fortunate that we can add some realism while helping gameplay. I initially wanted to consider this mechanic for skirmisher cavalry but I am not so sure now... Edited July 7, 2021 by BreakfastBurrito_007 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonoar Posted July 7, 2021 Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 36 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said: Horse riding takes balance and it is my guess that it is harder to shoot at the same rate as when you are stationary. Also I think bigger bows are stronger (provided other construction qualities are constant), and would tend to shoot farther, so it makes sense in general that horse archers should have shorter range. This is not a balance problem since horse archers are faster than regular archers. I feel going for a 1.5x multiplier to attack repeat time and an accuracy nerf while moving should be enough to balance the "shooting while moving" aspect. I'd rather have reduced attack than reduced accuracy. Having your shots miss is just annoying in all kinds of games. I personally dislike RNGs in my games. Also, that attack speed nerf seems unnecessary. Ultimately it's the first shot of a massed horse archers that matters. You're not planning to use them against buildings/siege, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekaterina Posted July 7, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 57 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said: I initially wanted to consider this mechanic for skirmisher cavalry but I am not so sure now... I think most javelineers would prefer to throw the javelin in front of them. However, we can give this mechanic to chariots only, not other cavalry archers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyrrhicVictoryGuy Posted July 7, 2021 Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 7 minutes ago, Yekaterina said: I think most javelineers would prefer to throw the javelin in front of them. However, we can give this mechanic to chariots only, not other cavalry archers. PSssss, if anyone were to make a bronze age mod then you'd have an excuse to make Achaean chariot javalineers shoot while moving.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yekaterina Posted July 7, 2021 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 We also need to distinguish chariots from lone horses. 2 minutes ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said: PSssss, if anyone were to make a bronze age mod then you'd have an excuse to make Achaean chariot javalineers shoot while moving.... Aristeia. I made the Bronze age Egyptian mod. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PyrrhicVictoryGuy Posted July 7, 2021 Report Share Posted July 7, 2021 2 minutes ago, Yekaterina said: We also need to distinguish chariots from lone horses. Aristeia. I made the Bronze age Egyptian mod. Oh thats neat, but i though egys used bows on their chariots , that's why I specified the Myceneans or Achaeans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.