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Nerfed archer accuracy XML file


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I have increased the spread of archer projectile to 2.5 and changed the damage per second to 4.34 as opposed to the previous 4.46. The archers fire more frequently but each arrow does less damage. 

Greater spread means open order formation is more important; if an enemy archer misses your unit they are less likely to injure your unit standing next to their target. 

Can the balancing advisors discuss whether this is nerfed enough or do we need more nerf?

 

XML file content:
 

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?>
<Entity parent="template_unit_infantry_ranged">
  <Attack>
    <Ranged>
      <AttackName>Bow</AttackName>
      <Damage>
        <Hack>0</Hack>
        <Pierce>4.34</Pierce>
        <Crush>0</Crush>
      </Damage>
      <MaxRange>65</MaxRange>
      <MinRange>0</MinRange>
      <PrepareTime>1000</PrepareTime>
      <RepeatTime>1000</RepeatTime>
      <Delay>0</Delay>
      <Projectile>
        <Speed>100.0</Speed>
        <Spread>2.5</Spread>
        <Gravity>9.81</Gravity>
        <FriendlyFire>false</FriendlyFire>
        <LaunchPoint y="3"/>
      </Projectile>
      <PreferredClasses datatype="tokens">Human</PreferredClasses>
  </Ranged>

  </Attack>
  <Cost>
    <Resources>
      <food>50</food>
      <wood>50</wood>
    </Resources>
  </Cost>
  <Identity>
    <VisibleClasses datatype="tokens">Archer</VisibleClasses>
    <GenericName>Archer</GenericName>
  </Identity>
  <Loot>
    <wood>5</wood>
  </Loot>
  <Resistance>
    <Entity>
      <Damage>
        <Hack>1</Hack>
        <Pierce>1</Pierce>
        <Crush>0</Crush>
      </Damage>
    </Entity>
  </Resistance>
  <Sound>
    <SoundGroups>
      <attack_impact_ranged>attack/impact/arrow_impact.xml</attack_impact_ranged>
      <attack_ranged>attack/weapon/bow_attack.xml</attack_ranged>
    </SoundGroups>
  </Sound>
  <UnitMotion>
    <WalkSpeed op="mul">1.2</WalkSpeed>
  </UnitMotion>
</Entity>

 

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I am not sure what the balancing folks have in store for archers, but a reduction in accuracy would be a good idea to nerf them. I think they should also have slightly slower move speed than skirms or slingers. We also need to keep in mind not to over-nerf them. I have a recent post to letsplay0ad's mod discussion about archery tradition. The changes of archery tradition and base archer balance should be done at the same time, to avoid bad combinations that make archery tradition a "never-get" or an "always get" upgrade for archer civs. My basic idea is to make archery tradition make archers more effective vs other ranged units, but make them even more vulnerable to melee attack from cav or inf.

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35 minutes ago, BreakfastBurrito_007 said:

I am not sure what the balancing folks have in store for archers, but a reduction in accuracy would be a good idea to nerf them. I think they should also have slightly slower move speed than skirms or slingers. We also need to keep in mind not to over-nerf them. I have a recent post to letsplay0ad's mod discussion about archery tradition. The changes of archery tradition and base archer balance should be done at the same time, to avoid bad combinations that make archery tradition a "never-get" or an "always get" upgrade for archer civs. My basic idea is to make archery tradition make archers more effective vs other ranged units, but make them even more vulnerable to melee attack from cav or inf.

If I remember correctly the archers had 5.7 pierce back in A23, which equates to 3.8 damage per second. 

Speed nerf is a good idea. I also gave archers and slingers minimum ranges because they cannot be used as a melee weapon. You can't really bash someone in the head with a bow nor whip your enemy with a a sling. 

Archers are really vulnerable to my modified spearmen. I made it such that in close quarter, sword >= spear > skrimisher > sling > archer. However archers have greater range than skirmishers so that is their advantage. 

I can also make them fire more frequently but dealing less damage per hit. This would make micromanaging your troops important and can really distinguish the pros from nubs. 

 

 

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What do you think about slingers? 

I personally would recommend low accuracy but high damage. You can't aim that well with a swinging sling but it surely packs a ton of damage. 

I will give it a high spread but also high pierce and crush. 

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1 minute ago, Yekaterina said:

You are correct. I shall increase their pierce damage instead, or increase their rate of fire. 

What do you think about giving them hack damage? This saves buildings but allows them to damage siege weapons slightly. 

Hmm, what role do you want for them? Start with that, young Padawan Designer. :)

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2 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Padawan Designer

What is Padawan Designer?

OK. Slingers are cheap troops who do a lot of damage to units, but are poorly armoured and very inaccurate. The only exception is Roman Legions who also know how to use a sling. 

Thanks for the inspiration. I got some ideas:

Very cheap cost: 10 wood, 10 stone, 40 food.

Low accuracy: spread > 4.0

High damage: 5.5 < pierce <  14 (must be less than skirmishers though)

Walks at the same speed as any other ranged units.

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Just now, alre said:

So having a loose formation actually helps against archers? That's a surprise! For some reason I always assumed that only the target risked damage. What about friendly fire?

Any stray projectile will damage an enemy entity, whether a unit or building, as long as it falls into their footprint. Friendly fire is turned off for all (most?) damage though. 

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2 minutes ago, alre said:

So having a loose formation actually helps against archers? That's a surprise! For some reason I always assumed that only the target risked damage. What about friendly fire?

Friendly fire is disabled. I can enable it if you want. 

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I think archers are the best civilian ranged infantry. However I think the gap is not as big as you might think. With a 10% decrease in damage output they could be fine, that is what I am thinking. On top of that I would like to see a buff for spear cavalry so they can function as a counter to ranged unit.

 

The main advantage is that archers have long range. If the spread would be increased such that their damage at max range is reduced, I think that would help balance. That would create a situation where you can do damage from a safe distance, but it won´t be much unless the enemy decides to get close.

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1 minute ago, Yekaterina said:

Friendly fire is disabled. I can enable it if you want. 

I think Friendly Fire in the game as it currently exists is an unnecessary complication. It sort of works for AOE2's catapults because they have "smart" unit AI that doesn't auto-fire into masses of friendly troops. It also works in a Total War game for the same reason, and you also have to manually target your archers almost every time, so that you can choose when and where to take the risk of friendly fire. In 0 A.D., units are currently quite dumb and constantly ZERG at each other like BERSERKERS regardless of consequences. :) 

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1 minute ago, Yekaterina said:

But please tell me what stats you think are appropriate

I was just saying that if you want to adjust the stats of slingers, you should determine first what role you want them to have. Are they anti-archer or anti-infantry or anti-siege or anti-building or a raider or what? Once you know that, you can match up the attack and resistance stats and see how you can achieve that role you have chosen. 

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12 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I was just saying that if you want to adjust the stats of slingers, you should determine first what role you want them to have. Are they anti-archer or anti-infantry or anti-siege or anti-building or a raider or what? Once you know that, you can match up the attack and resistance stats and see how you can achieve that role you have chosen. 

Slingers are not anti-anything in particular. They are just cheap male units who are to be spammed and used for boom instead of serious combat. 

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But, isn't it an unnecessary complication to have random spread of arrows too? no one uses loose formation, even if archers are extremely popular, and ranged units in general always were.

If I remember correctly, archers in AoE shoot at the exact target.

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