Civ: Spartans

[Outis]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Whoaaaa

Do me next

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

My latest Spartan themed slop:

 

 

Body Armor (Hack Resistance) progression for the Mediterranean civs (of which Sparta is one):

 

Krypteia:

 

Helot Economy:

 

Feminine Mystique:

 

[Thalatta]

Given the amount of sources already used in it, I can only recommend :

 

I don't know what Feminine Mystique does, but Bibasis Dance could be an historical alternative making use of an interesting attested Spartan custom, and the icon a Spartan woman (who were famously fit because of their exercising) doing it:

 

And as you might now, the armour progression shown is quite unrealistic (and I'm not sure about feeding wrong ideas just because they might look more intuitive ). This is explained by historian Roel Konijnendijk (posting as Iphikrates) in https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/5d3bkk/what_is_greek_hoplite_armor_made_from for example, one of the main points being "no real evidence of the use of leather armour" in Ancient Greece (even when more medievally inclined people tend to think otherwise). Then, streamlining a bit what I proposed in Thoughts on the Spartans, one could start with Bell Cuirass, and go through the more period accurate techs (or their more prevalent adoption at least) Transitional Cuirass, Muscle Cuirass and Linothorax, while making them look progressively more interesting:

One could add the pteryges (leather strips) on all armours, but they are an integral part of the last, and I ran out of free AI images  (abs should be added on the second, and the last can be improved).

Edited yesterday at 11:23 by Thalatta

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

15 hours ago, Thalatta said:

I don't know what Feminine Mystique does, but Bibasis Dance could be an historical alternative making use of an interesting attested Spartan custom, and the icon a Spartan woman (who were famously fit because of their exercising) doing it:

This is fantastic! I'll add it.

 

15 hours ago, Thalatta said:

And as you might now, the armour progression shown is quite unrealistic (and I'm not sure about feeding wrong ideas just because they might look more intuitive ). This is explained by historian Roel Konijnendijk (posting as Iphikrates) in https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/5d3bkk/what_is_greek_hoplite_armor_made_from for example, one of the main points being "no real evidence of the use of leather armour" in Ancient Greece (even when more medievally inclined people tend to think otherwise). Then, streamlining a bit what I proposed in Thoughts on the Spartans, one could start with Bell Cuirass, and go through the more period accurate techs (or their more prevalent adoption at least) Transitional Cuirass, Muscle Cuirass and Linothorax, while making them look progressively more interesting:

One could add the pteryges (leather strips) on all armours, but they are an integral part of the last, and I ran out of free AI images  (abs should be added on the second, and the last can be improved).

Well, I'm down foe making a more realistic 'progression', but you gotta remember that the 'progression' in the game should be from light -> medium -> heavy. That's a general trend throughout the game for many types of tech progressions. Like how it goes from baskets -> wheelbarrows -> large carts. I know this particular example is problematic too, but it's illustrative of the concept and its pitfalls. 

In your example, going from patina bronze cuirass -> different looking bronze cuirass -> different looking bronze cuirass -> iron thorax isn't an intuitive progression. Some Spartans certainly used the linothorax at some point, so it seems a better progression to go with: Quilted Linen Corselets -> Laminated Tube-and-Yoke Corselets (Linothorakes) -> Bronze Cuirasses (Chalkthorakes) or something like this. Or Linothorakes -> Scale-Reinforced Linothorakes -> Bronze Cuirasses. Not sure myself. Several directions which can be taken.

 ->  -> 

[Thalatta]

13 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

the 'progression' in the game should be from light -> medium -> heavy. That's a general trend throughout the game for many types of tech progressions. Like how it goes from baskets -> wheelbarrows -> large carts.

Well, I don't think Farmstead techs or Arrow techs at the Forge follow a light->heavy progression for example, but a worse->better one. In the case of armour, I streamlined things now merging increased "mobility" and slight "resistance" decrease with an overall "defence" increase, along with cheaper costs, thus worse->better in many respects. Realistically, it's hard to talk about progression regarding armour, since their use overlapped a lot, but one can talk about when they started to be adopted more often. Also, only considering a Linothorax progression would be too made up, since we know very little about it in the first place (EDIT: but I remember thinking about if using a couple of Linothorakes types, have to look into it better, but for sure I wouldn't put Bronze Cuirasses after them).

Edited 10 hours ago by Thalatta

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

It's armor, so we're going for more protection. Other considerations like flexibility and whatnot is getting too far into the weeds. And as a reminder, it's not supposed to be a historical progression through the timeline either. Several of these cultures are depicted compressed into a representation of about a century of time. Several decades in the least.  So, for body armor, which is supposed to give a +1 hack resistance for each tech up the ladder, going from a bell cuirass to an exomis, which is the historical progression, is not intuitive to its effect. During Sparta's height, sure, most Spartiates wore the exomis instead of a cuirass or linothorax, but they had the technology and knowledge of those things and they were available and some of them wore the heavier items, so they make sense as techs. 

[Thalatta]

It's debated to what extent they just used an exomis before more protection made a comeback, but yes, I didn't mention it because that would be indeed too confusing. I counted mobility (as in agility) as "adding" protection because dodging and parrying would count for it (since they are not appearing independently in the game, I think). But that's just headcannon, I avoid mentioning that and just tried to make the linothorax look more complex and better than the bronze cuirass (if I didn't achieve that is in part because I ran out of free AI images ).

In any case, both types of armour appeared before the time frame of the game, and evolved in parallel, that's why I relied more on a "when they started to be adopted more often" criteria, thus the fact that linothorax is preferred at later stages is what throws me off quite a bit.

Another take could be if you have medium and heavy infantry (assuming light have almost no armour), and each would have their own armour tech tree (for linothorax and bronze cuirass, respectively and independently). That would not only make more sense, but diversify units better, look more realistic (with certain constraints, like Skiritai, asuming they are medium infantry, always using linothorax and Spartiates always using bronze cuirass, when in reality it wouldn't have been so monolithic), and add to the gameplay (particularly if, in general although situational, earlier techs make heavy units preferable, and later techs make medium units preferable, for the Greeks at least, and it's nice that this would depend on each civ). I guess this can be a big change, although not as big as some mod I saw not long ago where techs were too split into too many different unit types (and anyway DE is into more techs, if I'm not wrong ).

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

17 hours ago, Thalatta said:

I don't know what Feminine Mystique does, but Bibasis Dance could be an historical alternative making use of an interesting attested Spartan custom, and the icon a Spartan woman (who were famously fit because of their exercising) doing it:

 

"Strategy Game Icon Style" (the standard I've taught the LLM to maintain):

 

Iconized for in-game:

Athletic Dances (replaces "Feminine Mystique")

• Cost
  • 300 Food
  • 300 Glory
• Effect
  • Spartan Women +100% attack. 
  • Spartan Women +25% health. 
  • Spartan Women +5 carry capacity for all resources.
• Description
  • Ancient Spartan dance was closely tied to education, athletic training, religion, and communal identity. Spartan boys and men practiced martial dances, especially the pyrrhichē, which imitated combat movements—dodging, striking, advancing, and retreating—and helped develop rhythm, agility, and coordination. Choral dancing was equally important at festivals such as the Gymnopaidiai and Hyakinthia, where age groups performed songs and dances that celebrated discipline, military virtue, civic continuity, and the gods. Spartan girls also received unusually extensive physical training by Greek standards, and dancing formed part of that culture of public athletic display.
    
    The female Spartan dance usually called the bibasis (Greek βίβασις) was an especially athletic form. Ancient descriptions portray dancers repeatedly leaping upward and striking or touching their buttocks with their heels while airborne, apparently counting the successful repetitions. It was therefore less like a restrained ceremonial dance and more like a combination of dance, jumping exercise, and competitive athletic display. Both young men and women could perform versions of it, but Spartan girls became particularly associated with the feat. One ancient anecdotal tradition even praises a girl for performing a thousand consecutive kicks or jumps, although such numbers should be treated as celebratory exaggeration rather than a precise athletic record.
    
    For Spartan women, the bibasis fits the broader educational ideal attributed to Sparta: girls were encouraged to cultivate strength, stamina, coordination, and bodily confidence, rather than being confined exclusively to domestic accomplishments. The dance would most plausibly have been performed in a short, practical tunic, allowing freedom of leg movement, probably barefoot, and without armor. It was athletic, rhythmic, and distinctly Spartan in the way it blurred the boundary between dance and physical training.

 

Spoiler

{
	"supersedes": "house/health_citizens_01",
	"genericName": "Ritualized Dances",
	"description": "Ancient Spartan dance was closely tied to education, athletic training, religion, and communal identity. Spartan boys and men practiced martial dances, especially the pyrrhichē, which imitated combat movements—dodging, striking, advancing, and retreating—and helped develop rhythm, agility, and coordination. Choral dancing was equally important at festivals such as the Gymnopaidiai and Hyakinthia, where age groups performed songs and dances that celebrated discipline, military virtue, civic continuity, and the gods. Spartan girls also received unusually extensive physical training by Greek standards, and dancing formed part of that culture of public athletic display.\n\nThe female Spartan dance usually called the bibasis (Greek βίβασις, sometimes rendered bibasis or confused in modern spelling as “babesis”) was an especially athletic form. Ancient descriptions portray dancers repeatedly leaping upward and striking or touching their buttocks with their heels while airborne, apparently counting the successful repetitions. It was therefore less like a restrained ceremonial dance and more like a combination of dance, jumping exercise, and competitive athletic display. Both young men and women could perform versions of it, but Spartan girls became particularly associated with the feat. One ancient anecdotal tradition even praises a girl for performing a thousand consecutive kicks or jumps, although such numbers should be treated as celebratory exaggeration rather than a precise athletic record.\n\nFor Spartan women, the bibasis fits the broader educational ideal attributed to Sparta: girls were encouraged to cultivate strength, stamina, coordination, and bodily confidence, rather than being confined exclusively to domestic accomplishments. The dance would most plausibly have been performed in a short, practical tunic, allowing freedom of leg movement, probably barefoot, and without armor. It was athletic, rhythmic, and distinctly Spartan in the way it blurred the boundary between dance and physical training.",
	"cost": {
		"food": 300,
		"glory": 300
	},
	"requirements": {
		"all": [
			{ "tech": "phase_town" },
			{ "civ": "spart" }
		]
	},
	"requirementsTooltip": "Unlocked in Town Phase.",
	"icon": "spartan_dancer.png",
	"researchTime": 30,
	"tooltip": "[font=\"sans-bold-14\"]• Spartan Women +100% attack\n• Spartan Women +25% health.\n• Spartan Women +5 carry capacity for all resources.[/font]",
	"modifications": [
		{ "value": "Attack/Melee/Damage/Hack", "multiply": 2},
		{ "value": "Health/Max", "multiply": 1.25 },
		{ "value": "ResourceGatherer/Capacities/food", "add": 5 },
		{ "value": "ResourceGatherer/Capacities/wood", "add": 5 },
		{ "value": "ResourceGatherer/Capacities/stone", "add": 5 },
		{ "value": "ResourceGatherer/Capacities/metal", "add": 5 },
		{ "value": "ResourceGatherer/Capacities/coin", "add": 5 }
	],
	"affects": ["Woman"],
	"soundComplete": "interface/alarm/alarm_upgradearmory.xml"
}

 

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

29 minutes ago, Thalatta said:

It's debated to what extent they just used an exomis before more protection made a comeback, but yes, I didn't mention it because that would be indeed too confusing. I counted mobility (as in agility) as "adding" protection because dodging and parrying would count for it (since they are not appearing independently in the game, I think). But that's just headcannon, I avoid mentioning that and just tried to make the linothorax look more complex and better than the bronze cuirass (if I didn't achieve that is in part because I ran out of free AI images ).

In any case, both types of armour appeared before the time frame of the game, and evolved in parallel, that's why I relied more on a "when they started to be adopted more often" criteria, thus the fact that linothorax is preferred at later stages is what throws me off quite a bit.

Another take could be if you have medium and heavy infantry (assuming light have almost no armour), and each would have their own armour tech tree (for linothorax and bronze cuirass, respectively and independently). That would not only make more sense, but diversify units better, look more realistic (with certain constraints, like Skiritai, asuming they are medium infantry, always using linothorax and Spartiates always using bronze cuirass, when in reality it wouldn't have been so monolithic), and add to the gameplay (particularly if, in general although situational, earlier techs make heavy units preferable, and later techs make medium units preferable, for the Greeks at least, and it's nice that this would depend on each civ). I guess this can be a big change, although not as big as some mod I saw not long ago where techs were too split into too many different unit types (and anyway DE is into more techs, if I'm not wrong ).

 

I've had the idea for a while, sitting in the back of my mind for several years now, of rather than simply adjusting stats, some Forge techs unlock the ability to train Medium and Heavy variants of your units. So, researching "Linothorakes" unlocks Medium units, while researching "Bronze Cuirass" unlocks Heavy units. Ranged units like Slingers, Archers, Skirmish Cavalry, etc. would only have Light and Medium options to train after your research "Linothorakes", and then you can unlock Light, Medium, and Heavy variants for Hoplites and Hippikons after researching Linothorakes and then Bronze Cuirasses. 

 

This would replace the current promotion system. 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

18 hours ago, Thalatta said:

I don't know what Feminine Mystique does, but Bibasis Dance could be an historical alternative making use of an interesting attested Spartan custom, and the icon a Spartan woman (who were famously fit because of their exercising) doing it:

[LeJardindEpicure]

4 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

 

I've had the idea for a while, sitting in the back of my mind for several years now, of rather than simply adjusting stats, some Forge techs unlock the ability to train Medium and Heavy variants of your units. So, researching "Linothorakes" unlocks Medium units, while researching "Bronze Cuirass" unlocks Heavy units. Ranged units like Slingers, Archers, Skirmish Cavalry, etc. would only have Light and Medium options to train after your research "Linothorakes", and then you can unlock Light, Medium, and Heavy variants for Hoplites and Hippikons after researching Linothorakes and then Bronze Cuirasses. 

 

This would replace the current promotion system. 

If this is for the main game i strongly advise against doing that. It overcomplicates the mechanics for nothing and nullify the possibility of upgrading units when already fighting.

[Thalatta]

2 hours ago, LeJardindEpicure said:

If this is for the main game

We are in the Delenda Est section  (for now ).

 

7 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

This would replace the current promotion system. 

By this I guess you mean how they would look when promoting? That would be great, I think I mentioned to @Emacz long ago that their armour shouldn't be changed in the promotion system, instead some other extra equipment should change, like crests, cloaks, greaves… while the armour being left connected to their corresponding techs (it's not nice that both things are so disjointed in vanilla).

Of course it would be more realistic if techs unlock unit variants instead of just changing stats, but as @LeJardindEpicure says, it would change quite some things. I'm not against that, it's just a different approach, but what I proposed falls in the middle of both worlds: you already have the units, just a bit more differentiated according to armour "weight", and each has corresponding techs that change their armour (stats and looks). If, in some particular cases, some tech allows for the production of something quite different, then a new unit could be unlocked (I'm going to mention something about this regarding siege machines in my post of the Athenians, since I ran hard into this problem some time ago).