Discuss about siege weapon

[Dakara]

Hello,

here we can talk about self vision of the siege !

1 FIRSTTTTTTTTTT  By default units attack instead of controlling (already done in a mod)

Some views

Units

Ballista : slightly increase maximum range and minimum range.

Catapult : increase minimum range, slower moving, reduce their ability to kill soldiers easily, slightly reduce their cost for compensate nerf

Tower Siege: Some civ have tech for+20 capacity, slower moving

For Persians with tech Tower Siege can attack building

Rams: Only attack structures, seats units and ships, damage +10%

Ship catapult: Too much snowball??? Expensive but op and very tanky, what are your ideas?

Ideas of news units ?

Men with torch : have decent attack on building and can burn tree, very little armor and bad at fight

Rider torch : Same as men with torch but more fast / have decent attack on building and can burn tree, very little armor and bad at fight  /// For only 2 civilizations

Why not divide into 2 units Men with mallet ( 2 population-units with 2 mens and a big log with metal- as mercenary Kushite but more damage on building) and big ram (4population-same of actually with more life and damage)

Building

Why not develop the idea of undermining tunnels?

In order to collapse a portion of wall, with a big construction time and a very good range (which requires a bit of exploitation from the defender). Then attacker can pass soldiers by little number (garrison system of 5 spot). Said in another way it like a teleporter over medium distance provided that both ends of tunnel remain alive.

Bridge or pontoon construction, with mens and ship

[badosu]

One discussed point in another thread is making rams available to all civs, I'd think that even if there are no accounts of the full ram vehicle for other civs allowing at least a basic form of ramming (a big trunk with fortified head) would make sense and balance it a bit.

As for torching, raiding was often done with regular cavalry on small towns and sacking with regular troops, so I'd see that as something reasonable too, though the mechanic would have to be well thought out.

Undermining tunnels, I could not find accounts for other civs except for Romans.

Edited March 6, 2020 by badosu

[Genava55]

3 hours ago, Dakara said:

Why not develop the idea of undermining tunnels?

I agree, it was probably a widespread method.

[Dakara]

yes genava55, but as badosu points out, few civilizations did it militarily before the 1200s ... so we can't forget the idea, rome is already goooddd

 

 

 

[Genava55]

1 hour ago, Dakara said:

yes genava55, but as badosu points out, few civilizations did it militarily before the 1200s ... so we can't forget the idea, rome is already goooddd

Actually even the Gauls did it.

Quote

Caesar, Gallic Wars, Book 2: There was a town of the Remi, by name Bibrax, eight miles distant from this camp. This the Belgae on their march began to attack with great vigor. The assault was with difficulty sustained for that day. The Gauls' mode of besieging is the same as that of the Belgae: when after having drawn a large number of men around the whole of the fortifications, stones have begun to be cast against the wall on all sides, and the wall has been stripped of its defenders, then, forming a testudo, they advance to the gates and undermine the wall: which was easily effected on this occasion; for while so large a number were casting stones and darts, no one was able to maintain his position upon the wall. When night had put an end to the assault, Iccius, who was then in command of the town, one of the Remi, a man of the highest rank and influence among his people, and one of those who had come to Caesar as embassador to sue for peace, sends messengers to him, to report "That, unless assistance were sent to him he could not hold out any longer."

 

[soloooy0]

I think that in order to avoid catapults and ballistic spam, you have to put artillery friendly fire and battering only against structures will be much more useful

the tunnels, I think remember that Rome puts under the important structures a tunnel and put straw oils and pigs, to burn the foundations

[badosu]

1 hour ago, Genava55 said:

then, forming a testudo, they advance to the gates and undermine the wall

I'd imagine since they had to go under fire to reach the wall that undermining (in that occasion) is not actually digging a tunnel to the wall but instead trying to undermine the wall at the location? (not a bad idea either)

Edited March 6, 2020 by badosu

[Genava55]

Probably digging underneath yes. But still, it is impressive in regards of the murus gallicus and their solidity.

[Genava55]

Another account

[7.22] To the extraordinary valor of our soldiers, devices of every sort were opposed by the Gauls; since they are a nation of consummate ingenuity, and most skillful in imitating and making those things which are imparted by any one; for they turned aside the hooks with nooses, and when they had caught hold of them firmly, drew them on by means of engines, and undermined the mound the more skillfully on this account, because there are in their territories extensive iron mines, and consequently every description of mining operations is known and practiced by them. They had furnished, more over, the whole wall on every side with turrets, and had covered them with skins. Besides, in their frequent sallies by day and night, they attempted either to set fire to the mound, or attack our soldiers when engaged in the works; and, moreover, by splicing the upright timbers of their own towers, they equaled the height of ours, as fast as the mound had daily raised them, and countermined our mines, and impeded the working of them by stakes bent and sharpened at the ends, and boiling pitch and stones of very great weight, and prevented them from approaching the walls.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

ok so since this is a general siege discussion, I would like to post about siege pack times.

Currently catapults and bolt shooters take 10 seconds to convert between packed and unpacked. I think this is a needlessly long conversion time and it basically makes the use of catapults and bolt shooters highly clunky and annoying. Also, it massively reduces the surprise factor, which is important in 0ad.

Often I see players  prefer to use rams even when up against turtled civs that heavily counter rams like iberians.

Lastly, pushing a player with siege ends up taking too much time for most games. in team games at least, the rest of your team may have lost the game before your catapults have made progress.

I'd like to reduce the pack time to 5 seconds and the pack time upgrade to -50% prepare time, so they come up to 2.5 seconds.

[MacWolf]

bolt shooters are not used in "high level" Tg's, because they are too expensive both in time, since u need to get p3 and in res, since u can get more upgrades/ and spam soldiers easily with barracks, i think bolt shooters should have no unpack time, but theyr speed and used pop to make increased to 3-4 per bolt, so they become viable as a support unit, to help counter blob fights, like some players use "press formation, wait for then to organize, and Press H, so melee like 40 spears will act like 10 units and attack all at same time, instead of they looking for a path to attack if u use "Ctrl + right click"

[Atrik]

56 minutes ago, MacWolf said:

bolt shooters are not used in "high level" Tg's, because they are too expensive both in time, since u need to get p3 and in res, since u can get more upgrades/ and spam soldiers easily with barracks,

They are used. They are just high risk high reward units. Easy to lose, but if you manage to get them on a good safe spot, they are extremely effective. And they are indeed effective against compact enemy formations. If they didn't have pack-unpack time, they will just be broken, and a too easy replacement for ranged units. I guess this is why hans don't have access to their wheeled bolt shooters, they are just too op.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

4 hours ago, Atrik said:

They are just high risk high reward units.

I would say just high risk. Its pretty rare to get them in a position you actually get the rewards (because they are so clunky).

Yeah, they are rarely seen in TGs and almost never in 1v1s (except for when vali pulls some wizardry).

[Atrik]

6 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I would say just high risk. Its pretty rare to get them in a position you actually get the rewards (because they are so clunky).

Yeah, they are rarely seen in TGs and almost never in 1v1s (except for when vali pulls some wizardry).

You don't play/spec enough games. If you can plan repack few seconds ahead of infantry movements, they are even op on open terrain. In dense terrain, it's easy to place them in a neat spot.

The wheeled onagres will be problematic for the same reasons if they don't have any weaknesses of the same kind. If you have a ranged aoe unit that can retreat easy, then you don't give much counter actions possible to your opponent. Siege weapons should be carefully trained as support for main forces, if the meta would be to spam any of them, I think it's a fail of balance.

Edited May 18 by Atrik

[chrstgtr]

Bolts are strong. But their use is mostly limited to turtling due to their movement speed and pack time, which makes them slow to retreat, slow to push, and extremely vulnerable to move.
 

I vote to reduce the pack/unpack time. It’s just an annoying feature. It feels like you’re constantly playing with awful lag and it is the main cause all of the three problems I identified above. 
 

On siege, siege towers are ridiculously OP now. 

[Atrik]

3 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

reduce the pack/unpack time. It’s just an annoying feature.

3 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

On siege, siege towers are ridiculously OP now. 

Siege towers can be a bit annoying because they are hit and run units. If you remove the pack/unpack time of bolts, that would also allow hit and run.... But with much more range, and aoe... Bolts are the most interesting units right now because they are challenging.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

@Atrik both bolts and catapults have been op before, but not because of their pack time.

it was because of their damage. What would happen is a ball of 30 or so bolts could be formed that basically became invulnerable but immovable.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

7 hours ago, Atrik said:

You don't play/spec enough games

So that disqualifies me from making points here?

19 minutes ago, Atrik said:

Siege towers can be a bit annoying because they are hit and run units. If you remove the pack/unpack time of bolts, that would also allow hit and run.... But with much more range, and aoe... Bolts are the most interesting units right now because they are challenging.

What are you talking about? siege towers can attack while moving. Bolts and catapults cannot. That is a masssssssive difference.

17 hours ago, Atrik said:

I guess this is why hans don't have access to their wheeled bolt shooters, they are just too op.

This was probably historical accuracy. Also, this would be a very simple fix to make them balanced: Keep the low movement speed, adjust damage and accuracy.

19 minutes ago, Atrik said:

Bolts are the most interesting units right now because they are challenging.

challenging for the wrong reason: you have to wait 10 sec + (2 sec prepare time) to shoot. They have never been OP because of their mobility and they wouldn't even if the pack time was removed.

A better challenge would be to focus on rewarding manual targeting to make the most of passthrough damage by increasing linear splash and decreasing the single unit damage the same amount.

Edited May 18 by real_tabasco_sauce

[MacWolf]

21 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

 

 

4 hours ago, chrstgtr said:

Bolts are strong. But their use is mostly limited to turtling due to their movement speed and pack time, which makes them slow to retreat, slow to push, and extremely vulnerable to move.
 

I vote to reduce the pack/unpack time. It’s just an annoying feature. It feels like you’re constantly playing with awful lag and it is the main cause all of the three problems I identified above. 
 

On siege, siege towers are ridiculously OP now. 

agree with bolts, they are viable for turtle or defence, which is the playstyle of atrik who uses it, atleast against me in tg, but in general they are a very high risk unity for u to bother building

siege tower are not ridiculously op, u don't play enough tg or 1v1 chrstgtr, i already tested it with some players and cav counters it, army + ram, champs etc etc etc, everything can become op if u can ecobot for 16 minutes

Edited May 18 by MacWolf

[MacWolf]

45 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

So that disqualifies me from making points here?

What are you talking about? siege towers can attack while moving. Bolts and catapults cannot. That is a masssssssive difference.

This was probably historical accuracy. Also, this would be a very simple fix to make them balanced: Keep the low movement speed, adjust damage and accuracy.

challenging for the wrong reason: you have to wait 10 sec + (2 sec prepare time) to shoot. They have never been OP because of their mobility and they wouldn't even if the pack time was removed.

A better challenge would be to focus on rewarding manual targeting to make the most of passthrough damage by increasing linear splash and decreasing the single unit damage the same amount.

if bolts had even worse move speed, but no unpack time they whould be balanced i agree, because u can always kill it, they could not be op like slingers, who snipers use hit and run tactics to kill even champs, because they can't retreat if meatshield dies, like slingers, also they whould be a way to counter snipers.

i disagree with the last part, because more splash range whould make then too op, since u could just spam meatshield and they whould kill everything, rn they only kill 1 unit and damage 2-3 as u said to me, which is good, but not op o/ and if u increase theyr pop use from 2 to 3, or even 4, with needing p3 etc, they whould be only op in a really late game stage, which everything becomes op if u have enough time, like ecobot for 16 minutes or more scenarios

Edited May 18 by MacWolf