My idea for counter system.

[Grugnas]

1 hour ago, Servo said:

There seems to be not much problem to unit balance except the very OP mechanical siege weapons(hoping women will really counter them). 

The main problem imo is just the ability to mass produce these organic units that could ensure a player/team victory early on. It's nice to watch or play with cavalries or special units early but so frustrating if they are wrecking havoc that makes the raided player to just sigh. 

At least if metal is required to produce these units (for ex 10 each cav more on sword cav) they can only produce maximum of 10 units until they mine, then strategy is added like team tributes. 10 skirm cav won't hurt a raided player much except if you have Borg skills or you are doubled. Nor these mass raiders are very effective after P2 when defenses are put up. 

Been spectating so many games last night and I can see that few raiders(10 or less) don't really devastate the player and the game is still undecided until the final phases and become interesting.  These devastating raids are only very effective (imo and little experience) when you have 20 units or more. Ten below you need another partner to neutralize an enemy. Then the game becomes interesting if there were less devastating raids.

I had quite a lot of previous games that hope to upload and players last night can tell when they review  their games. The ones in particular are the games of Boudicca, iapprove, JorgeGijon, and Pretension vs Borg, niegel, gabrielponti, Boyca. Then the next one temple, pretension, kisiton and Phoenix vs Borg, niegel, causative and D_wayne. Hope they can upload it. Maybe my bad as spec to tell causative to produce skirm cavs as Seleucid then raid or maybe he knows what to do but the result was very impressive  (with D_wayne help coz less than 10 cavs) than his previous game. They neutralize kisiton (and his quite op team) who did not make skirm cavs while in the enemy edge.

I'm not a pro player but I had quite a few games that took down 2 pros on a 1v1 easily not because I'm good but rather the effect of these mass raiders. I had couple 2v2, 3v3, with pros or good players that just last less than 30 minutes with fair amount of actions that could tell that the A22 is quite fine except mass production of units (and op siege units) early on or later. 

What do you mean with "op siege units"? Which unit in particular?

[Servo]

Obviously the bolt shooters and I noticed the catapults have higher HP too. Idk if there were any changes to catas but looking at that game I mentioned Borg catas are either invincible or they did not make much effort to destroy them and easily taking down cities after cities. 

[borg-]

In my opinion, real game rts is really a strategy game if have a counter system. If it does not, it happens what is happening in 0a.d, spam random units without a purpose.

Not to any strategy in that, you do not need to think about something that will overthrow your enemy, just in creating more units than he, I do not see anything rts in it.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Indeed, basicly can counter siege and cavalry the rest is spam units

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 8/10/2017 at 0:38 PM, fatherbushido said:

people came to the conclusion that the game needs rebalanced and combat refocused on things that make combat interesting. RPS type of combat ignore combat mechanics and just consists in learning a whole graph.

 

The problem is they nuke the counters and have no new mechanics to replace it. Should have waited until new mechanics are ready.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Fatherbushido say about start or continue working in Trample damage. Is part of mechanic some units can deal with mass attack , causing injured the nearby.

[Palaiogos]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Fatherbushido say about start or continue working in Trample damage. Is part of mechanic some units can deal with mass attack , causing injured the nearby.

We should do trample like in AOE 3. In AOE 3, trample was an ability which made cavalry do extreme amounts of damage (like are of effect damage) but it took 1.5 times the damage. 

[Servo]

Added features like trample are fine but don't have enough relevance to resolve gameplay issues. Having counters are needed too but these things don't have much relevance to really improve the game mechanics. I think after a couple of months or weeks the developers should make surveys whether the mode of just spamming units and fight make the majority of players appreciate the game or not. If they like the A22 then improvements should be done. If not then there should be a rethink as to what the game should finally be. I'm still immersed on the new alpha but been thinking about how to download and play the mods. I hope it's playable in multiplayer.

If I recall Pretension is doing pretty well in countering skirmisher cavs raids using melee. Melee cavs might have the speed but they are in disadvantage on maps having huntable wild animals like elephants, walrus and boars etc. 

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, Servo said:

Added features like trample are fine but don't have enough relevance to resolve gameplay issues. Having counters are needed too but these things don't have much relevance to really improve the game mechanics. I think after a couple of months or weeks the developers should make surveys whether the mode of just spamming units and fight make the majority of players appreciate the game or not. If they like the A22 then improvements should be done. If not then there should be a rethink as to what the game should finally be. I'm still immersed on the new alpha but been thinking about how to download and play the mods. I hope it's playable in multiplayer.

If I recall Pretension is doing pretty well in countering skirmisher cavs raids using melee. Melee cavs might have the speed but they are in disadvantage on maps having huntable wild animals like elephants, walrus and boars etc. 

Yes indeed but they are arguing why isn't added yet, is that needs all features that involve changes,for devs is more easy way, but the player...

[sphyrth]

The planned features (trample, charging, secondary attacks, formation, etc.) are all consistent with a Battalion system. And even that discussion doesn't turn out well.

[Lion.Kanzen]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone

Don't  give up. Your mod have very sense and enjoy see Macedonians Pezhetaroi taking arrows from Kushites.

the macedonian cavalry was hunted by spearman+Skirmisher mix. I feeling again in RTS. Only I spammed the units that I need.

 

[Servo]

Hey are mods can be played on A22? I heard it's millinium AD. Is it ready for download?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

15 minutes ago, Servo said:

Hey are mods can be played on A22? I heard it's millinium AD. Is it ready for download?

Mods can definitely be played on A22. as far as I know though, DE is the only one released for A22 so far.

[Lion.Kanzen]

You need ask to @niektb

[Grugnas]

Honestly i think that "spamming unit" is an abused term because some civs like Romans don't have a wide choice of infantry units in phase 1 and i am quite sure that using 1 type of unit only always results on a lost fight even if the units in question are champions. A citizen soldier oriented game incentive you to train any kind of soldiers, and there are soldiers which can give a higher contribute to the economy growth thanks to their movement speed.

The main issue is that there is a strategies limit described by the choices a player can do that may give you advantage over the opponent:

Training women and send them to gather wood is always better for the first 6-7 min than training soldiers which require wood needed for houses, in order to constantly grow your population, and eventually palisades which basically should grant you a decent defense for the food production.

The women working of grainfield are basically NEVER protected by house walls or palisades because the stone and metal mines distance from civic center is too low, preventing a player from placing 8 grainfields near the civic center and making the defense way harder (the gridless buildings placement system let cavalry move among houses and palisades more than often). The wood invested into palisades isn't worth the effort.

Sentry tower are a tricky defense building because they require soldiers garrisoned in it to be more effective, letting the women chopping wood harmless and the amount of damage dealt by the garrisoned tower isn't enough to force the enemy raiders to retreat when the raiders are too many. Plus a player has to secure his territory while changing wood gathering spot by building more towers, keeping the previously built ungarrisoned and easy to capture by enemy cavalry. A mere waste of wood and eventually food (the 500 food costly Sentinel tech for sentry towers is too expensive).

Skirmish cavalry have a huge advantage against spear cavalry into hunting because of their hunting efficiency and their price (animals give tons of food and skirmisher cavalry cost more food and less wood than spear cavalry).

Sometimes expanding isn't worth the effort because phasing up grants hp bonus to all the soldiers resulting in a easy capture with a couple of rams for the enemy.

Perhaps bolt shooters don't need so high crush damage because they are meant to be used against units.

Personally i have the feeling that phasing up isn't oriented to the research of new technologies but economical technologies

Edited August 12, 2017 by Grugnas

[Lion.Kanzen]

Spamming rams... other problem.

i don't investigate the blacksmith. Are changes if I do?

Edited August 12, 2017 by Lion.Kanzen

[Nescio]

Since people have been clamouring for the implementation of a counter system, I've decided to update, expand, and publish my private mod. It includes, amongst other things, a moderate counter system. Details can be found at: https://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?/topic/22779-0abc-mod/

 

On 12/08/2017 at 7:43 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Mods can definitely be played on A22. as far as I know though, DE is the only one released for A22 so far.

And now there are at least two