===[COMMITTED]=== Briton Fortress and Walls

[LordGood]

Yeah, I know nobody asked for this but I cant help myself- probably one of the most challenging fortresses I've done tbh. Making use of the space inside was difficult given the shape.

The old broch seemed a little too... perfect.. and didn't have a door... and instead of doing things the easy way and fixing it, i made a whole new one, like i do

Celts texture pack is fun to play with at any rate

gate coming later, also, why do the Brits even have  stone walls? We can't do earthworks without biome tags, or else stuff will look horrendous

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

"Old" broch is better, sorry. Just my opinion. I would hate to see it thrown out. The new look like something from Ponies Ascendant. *shrugs*

The walls are interesting to see though. Look nice!

 

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why do the Brits even have  stone walls?

Because the celt made stone case walls. It was the insides that were make of earth and wood and prevent Caesar's men from using battering ram (the earth and wood absorbed the force). And if you want to do the "earthworks" thing with the slope sides you have to solve a lot of issues, not just the biome thing for the dirt. You have to solve how to make units run up earthen side. You have to solve to let the units know that the wall is a place for defensiveness and not just a obstacle when tasked to attack enemy. Also solve how to choose which side is the ramp side and which side is the defensive (wall) side when you drag place the wall length in real time. All of these are not unsolvable, but I think are low priority and hard, so just having wall that works like other civ is great for now.

Edited September 28, 2016 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Stan`]

I must agree with Justus on the fact that the new fortress looks a bit like a cartoon. Maybe you could keep the old surrounding wall and change the inside, I wonder how that'd look.

Yeah walls look good, and they are a nice differentiation from the old celt walls. I remade them in 

They are available in my eyecandy mod.

[LordGood]

Is it the variation in outer wall thickness? That and the wicker shooting galleries are the only modifications to the tight broch cities I found examples for. I couldn't find anything to justify palisades on top, perhaps more wicker shielding, sure but there's no room for battlements, so all that would do is obstruct existing shooting galleries. The outer walls did follow the dwelling ones too in the examples I found. I'd like to fix it, but I need a little more feedback. 

Also, I do want to put those Gaulish wall mods in at some point, Stan

i found very little in terms of pre-dark age British, Pictish, Irish Celt, or Scottish masonry fortifications of such height as the rest. I'm aware of the Gaulish fortifications Julius Caesar encountered on his campaign. All I could find were small broch walls, but that could be because of where I'm looking. 

[LordGood]

Brochs of gurness, and clickimin(?) in Shetland were my two most used examples

[Stan`]

Right actually I'm not even sure they put wall on their fortress.

[LordGood]

Walls wrap around the fortress buildings and are of consistent thickness now, looks better but you'll have to take my word for it because I'm offline again

[LordGood]

Let's see if my phone can push these through

[LordGood]

That's one

[Tomcelmare]

Hi Lordgood! You made some nice variations here! I'd like to ask, while your creativity is at its peak (and your internet connexion at its worst), would you be interested to make a new library for the ptolemies? And a new palace for the mauryas? I'm merely suggesting...

[Lion.Kanzen]

@Tomcelmare the palace for mauryans, how can work into the game?

[Tomcelmare]

It's for new units, like the new building for persians. See my topic, I have answered you yesterday 

[FeXoR]

From @wowgetoffyourcellphone: "Also solve how to choose which side is the ramp side and which side is the defensive (wall) side when you drag place the wall length in real time."

This is allready an issue because gates have an "inside" and "outside" allready (as is). Same goes for wall towers, while few of them have doors all of them have droppoints (where the units come out when ungarrisoned). So at least this part has to be solved either way.

[LordGood]

@Tomcelmare I thought eggbird already made a mauryan palace?

[LordGood]

14 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

...I would hate to see it thrown out. ...

I've kept all the Gauls old models I've been working on recently, as dormant variations. You can reactivate them in DE if you choose by setting the variation ratio to a non 0 integer in the actor editor. I plan on doing the same with the Briton fortress once a good majority are happy with a new one. 

[Tomcelmare]

Yes that's true, there's already one. I thought it could use some "enlargement" in order to be used in the game. Actually, I support the idea of adding a heavy "royal" cavalry unit for the mauryans, in addition to making the champion maiden archer available, and I think they could be recruited in this new palace building...well, it's not likely my idea will be implemented, but a suggestion never hurts 

[Stan`]

3 hours ago, LordGood said:

That's one

I'm wondering since I got that remark on the celt walls, wouldn't it be better to have round roofs on wall towers, I mean, If someone was meant to stay there for the day, having sun protection would be nice, also, there is sun protection on the other towers too.

[LordGood]

Inactive variant does

[LordGood]

I should specify; they have a towered variant, but I forgot that Briton walls, like Gaul walls, have no garrison able wall turrets. so I saved  and deactivated the variation, and hacked off the roof for the current one. I can't take pictures now since a bad thunderstorm rolled through and I'm not risking my hard drive again lol

i should probably invest in a surge protector 

[WhiteTreePaladin]

I rather like the new fortress better than the old one, but both are good.

[LordGood]

Like so

[LordGood]

I've been messing with the Celt pack to see if I could work in darker thatch for the Brits wetter, cooler climate. Oh boy

i changes the hue of the thatch to match the desaturated almost brownish-red of older thatch, but the Gaul stone was already desaturated red, so I hue pushed that towards its complement, a greenish yellow, and lightened it to offset the heavier thatch values. Then I darkened the wood to keep its value relationship with the thatch. It's a big pain in the butt, and I still don't know how I feel about it. 

It's a huge change for sure

[Stan`]

Nice walls  I like them like this. I always wondered about the top thing above the gate, it seems that was never lost in the 10 centuries that followed though I did not  find any historical backup for it

About the hay I asked on an historical forum about it

 

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Tout dépend de la région. Le chaume n'est pas disponible partout, notamment dans les régions montagneuses, les lauzes font office de couverture. Il me semble que l'ardoise fut aussi employée, mais par pour des maisons paysannes.

All depends on the region hay is not available every where especially in mountain areas, stone slate make roofs.  For the color I'm not sure It kind of break contrasts don't you think ?
 

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Les technique de Torchis et de Chaumes n'ont peut être pas évoluée entre les Gaulois et les carolingiens au niveau de l'apparence générale. Mais la maison gauloise est décaissée de 1 à 2 mètres par rapport au niveau du sol. Pour rentrer dans la pièce principale il faut descendre 4 à 5 marches. Et il y a un étage qui peut servir de grange. 

Par contre attention le moulin à eau n'existait pas chez les Gaulois. Il y avait des esclaves pour faire tourner les roues.

L'implantation des villages est différentes, les gaulois occuppent des grosses agglomération de plusieurs centaine d'hectare en oppidum sur des plateaux alors que les populations carolingiennes se fragmente en villages plus petit et prés des cours d'eau (pour les moulins). 

Les murs d'enceintes des oppidums était le plus souvent en pierre sur support terre armée de madrier. Voici la description du Murus gallicus par jules Cesar : 

Citer :

« Tous les murs gaulois sont faits, en général, de la manière suivante. On pose sur le sol, sans interruption sur toute la longueur du mur, des poutres perpendiculaires à sa direction et séparées par des intervalles égaux de deux pieds. On les relie les unes aux autres dans l'œuvre, et on les recouvre d'une grande quantité de terre ; le parement est formé de grosses pierres encastrées dans les intervalles dont nous venons de parler. Ce premier rang solidement établi, on élève par-dessus un deuxième rang semblable, en conservant le même intervalle de deux pieds entre les poutres, sans que cependant pour cela elles touchent celles du rang inférieur, mais elles en sont séparées par un espace de deux pieds aussi, et chaque poutre est ainsi isolée de ses voisines par une pierre, ce qui la fixe solidement. On continue toujours de même jusqu'à ce que le mur ait atteint la hauteur voulue. Ce genre d'ouvrage offre un aspect varié qui n'est pas désagréable à l'œil, avec son alternance de poutres et de pierres, celles-ci n'en formant pas moins des lignes continues qui se coupent à angles droit ; il est, de plus, très pratique et parfaitement adapté à la défense des villes, car la pierre le défend du feu et le bois des ravages du bélier, celui-ci ne pouvant ni briser ni disjoindre une charpente où les pièces qui forment liaison à l'intérieur ont en général quarante pieds d'un seul tenant. »

 

Basically what they say is that gaul houses interiors are like 5 or 6 steps below ground, and some stories allow animals to be stored 

Oppidums' walls were generally in stone, on ground support with (https://www.google.fr/search?biw=1920&bih=939&tbm=isch&q=madrier+charpente&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwievv7hqrXPAhWJ2xoKHaboAeMQhyYIHQ)

Quote : (From wikipedia it seems) 

But this is usually the form of all the Gallic walls. Straight beams, connected lengthwise and two feet distant from each other at equal intervals, are placed together on the ground; these are morticed on the inside, and covered with plenty of earth. But the intervals which we have mentioned, are closed up in front by large stones. These being thus laid and cemented together, another row is added above, in such a manner, that the same interval may be observed, and that the beams may not touch one another, but equal spaces intervening, each row of beams is kept firmly in its place by a row of stones. In this manner the whole wall is consolidated, until the regular height of the wall be completed.

... it possesses great advantages as regards utility and the defence of cities; for the stone protects it from fire, and the wood from the battering ram, since it [the wood] being morticed in the inside with rows of beams, generally forty feet each in length, can neither be broken through nor torn asunder.

 

[LordGood]

The highlands might have trouble getting thatch, I suspect they may have used turf for roofing, though I forget where I had seen this. 

The lack of value contrast is what concerns me most, though there are no daubed houses or anything of that nature in the screenshot, which would help in that regard. 

But Ofc there is more than 1 Celt pack, don't know if I want to follow though with the others. 

[Stan`]

3 minutes ago, LordGood said:

The highlands might have trouble getting thatch, I suspect they may have used turf for roofing, though I forget where I had seen this. 

The lack of value contrast is what concerns me most, though there are no daubed houses or anything of that nature in the screenshot, which would help in that regard. 

But Ofc there is more than 1 Celt pack, don't know if I want to follow though with the others. 

I was thinking of something for the future, might create a ticket about it. If mapmakers could set a tag on maps, we could probably switch texture packs depending on that. @sanderd17 do you think it's hard to do to load textures depending on a map parameter ? Is there even a way to link that ?

Yeah it's mostly wood and stone, though that seems pretty accurate to the britons.

Though I think it's too brown looking at this 

I