Gameplay Feature: Battalions and Formations

[DarcReaver]

1 hour ago, Palaxin said:

 

What about unlocking battalions either in a tech or with a phase upgrade? E.g. you start in village phase with few units where micro work grants significant benefits and is still not too annoying. When you hit town phase or city phase at the latest, your population has grown to a point where single units really do not matter any more. Thus battalions make sense here... I would still advocate battalion dissolution as in some cases it wouldn't make that much sense to send a troop of soldiers e.g. scouting

Edit: what about this three-step model:
village phase - no battalions
town phase - simple battalions without musicians, officers, ... and only some standard formations available
city phase - battalions can be upgraded with musicians, officers, heroes... and special formations like Testudo become available

Why? What's the point? Every unit in 0 ad can fight, and you'll have 30-50 units as single units early on. After any fight its just impossible to properly redistribute them to gather resources again. It's the most annoying "feature" that this game has. Whenever it gets to a fight I just get annoyed because I know I have to redeploy every @#$%ing soldier to the resources.

Why not just go with 3-4 battalions instead? Women are trained in 5 person batches and you can send 1 batch of women to a resource spot. So you micro 5 units instead of 25. Why is it necessary to have single units? On top of that, how do you want to balance the costs? when you unlock city phase suddenly all your units you can train cost 10 times more resources because you suddenly train them in batches. This just makes everything confusing. It should be straight forward and streamlined.

Battalion sizes ofc can vary with the city phases, e.g. lategame you can increase your battalion sizes with upgrades and what not. But pls no single unit -> battalion unit transfer. Also, certain battalions and formations can and will be unlocked by teching, or maybe with increasing squad experience. Musicians and officers can be upgraded on each battalion individually, yes.

Edited February 3, 2016 by DarcReaver

[Palaxin]

I'm thinking similar to SeleucidKing:

On ‎10‎/‎14‎/‎2015 at 11:19 PM, SeleucidKing said:

While battalions would make the battles look great, and I LOVE the idea of banner units and noisemakers, I think individual units makes the game more charming. If you play Age of Empires, where each unit is an individual, the player feels more "connected" persay with that unit, and will tend to micro more effectively, to make sure the least number of units die as possible. As opposed to a Rise of Nations player, who will just send units willy-nilly, because they can create a large army on a short notice due to its batallion system. Also, it is a lot more impressive to build a large army from individuals then a bunch of large units. If the battalion system was implemented as a mod, that would be awesome, but I think it should not be in vanilla. I love the idea though! Well done!

I love that early game microing of AoE2 where you would lure that boar with a villager directly under your CC to get that fast food source. I love the fact that 3-5 early invading knights can cause serious trouble. Or a single onager shot can decide the tide of a whole battle.

In contrast, in 0 A.D. (at least in the current meta) you just produce units, gather, produce more units until you hit pop cap and flood the enemy territory with countless champions. For me, 0 A.D. feels a bit like an industrial unit production... Of course gameplay can and will change for the better, but I think the early game is defined by micro work - otherwise you have that boring non-stop batch (or battalion) unit production and you loose connection to your individual units.

That said I like the early game micro things of AoE2 AND the more macro focused features (like batch training, infinite field supply or maybe battalions in the future) of 0 A.D. BUT ONLY FOR THE LATE GAME where it makes managing your unit masses more convenient. But you should start really simple with VERY few units and make the best with them. For me it is fun if you have the feeling that your settlement is growing out of nothing into a big empire. The GROWTH. You have to start small (thus micro) and finish big (macro)... That's how I see things here.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Palaxin

[Palaxin]

2 hours ago, DarcReaver said:

you'll have 30-50 units as single units early on.

I think that's a problem, too. Early game should be more focused on other aspects than super fast unit production. Look at AoE2. In the other thread I just posted a video where the pros got 24 pop at 10 min with PURE booming. In 0 A.D. 130 are possible. IMHO waaaay too much.

2 hours ago, DarcReaver said:

After any fight its just impossible to properly redistribute them to gather resources again.

There is a button which allows to reallocate all selected units to the resources they gathered last...

2 hours ago, DarcReaver said:

Women are trained in 5 person batches and you can send 1 batch of women to a resource spot. So you micro 5 units instead of 25. Why is it necessary to have single units?

Why not make each unit more valuable so you micro 5 units instead of 5 batches? At least in the early game that should be the way. Later you are totally right, I'm totally annoyed of late game eco micro work  

2 hours ago, DarcReaver said:

On top of that, how do you want to balance the costs? when you unlock city phase suddenly all your units you can train cost 10 times more resources because you suddenly train them in batches. This just makes everything confusing. It should be straight forward and streamlined.

I think this is a very minor problem. You could visualize battalion training similar than batch training now... So when you have unlocked battalions and click to train a unit the icon is shown with the unit number. Or there other possible solutions. No big thing if you ask me.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Palaxin

[DarcReaver]

1 hour ago, Palaxin said:

I think that's a problem, too. Early game should be more focused on other aspects than super fast unit production. Look at AoE2. In the other thread I just posted a video where the pros got 24 pop at 10 min with PURE booming. In 0 A.D. 130 are possible. IMHO waaaay too much.

There is a button which allows to reallocate all selected units to the resources they gathered last...

Why not make each unit more valuable so you micro 5 units instead of 5 batches? At least in the early game that should be the way. Later you are totally right, I'm totally annoyed of late game eco micro work  

I think this is a very minor problem. You could visualize battalion training similar than batch training now... So when you have unlocked battalions and click to train a unit the icon is shown with the unit number. Or there other possible solutions. No big thing if you ask me.

Yes, in AoE it's fine with the pop management. But I think that batches of units create more atmosphere because it feels more that you're managing a city. If you have a "city" that only consists of 5 super efficient worker units it looks weird imo. I rather have multiple units at once instead.

As for micro, I think AoE II isn't that great, as defenses are so strong, and you just run around and try to prevent being out of range of the TC.

[Palaiogos]

On 1/28/2016 at 4:31 PM, DarcReaver said:

From what I've read in the vision 0 ad sounds a bit like an RTS version of a total war game, not really an AoE clone. Less focus on economy (yet still you need to manage several resources which is a good thing) and more focus on armies and unit compositions. That's why I think 0 ad should use a battalion system instead of individual units. Right now the individual unit management is very tedious and keeps you away from fighting. Also, because all gatherers work as combat units its very hard to apply pressure on the enemy as I've stated numerous times already.

I'd really advise to have a look at this.

I think 0 AD is more of a clone of BFME 2 with historically accurate features instead of Middle Earth. If it is supposed to be a clone of BFME 2, then yes we should have battalion systems, except the bannerman would fight. It is historically accurate that bannermen were the best men in their regiments. If It is more of AOE, then no. I don't think it is Total War like because in Total War the just have gold. Nothing except food, and population (at least Rome 1, and Medieval 2. I haven't played the new ones)

[WhiteTreePaladin]

I agree with the idea of making battalions a more late game feature. That's when you have the most units and things begin to get unmanageable.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

If you mix concept, it will be watered down and a mess to control. No game I have play has adequately to my satisfaction had a mixed system. It always felt disjointed and unnecessary with added complexity. So, I think the game should either have battalion or not. You can always have match start with extra scouts and hunters or something so you can have your fun microing a unit to spear a boar.

 

I can very easily see each player being able to train individual units like foragers or scouts for those roles, but then that are their only roles. They don't swap into and out of battalions and add steps that make the concept feel tacked on.

Edited February 4, 2016 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[DarcReaver]

5 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

If you mix concept, it will be watered down and a mess to control. No game I have play has adequately to my satisfaction had a mixed system. It always felt disjointed and unnecessary with added complexity. So, I think the game should either have battalion or not. You can always have match start with extra scouts and hunters or something so you can have your fun microing a unit to spear a boar.

 

I can very easily see each player being able to train individual units like foragers or scouts for those roles, but then that are their only roles. They don't swap into and out of battalions and add steps that make the concept feel tacked on.

Actually, that might be a nice idea. Specialist units like certain hunters work like early "hero" units, that are individuals. But I still think women should be trained in groups. Foraging and stuff was always done by groups of people, not single entities.

[av93]

Battalions could work if the citizien-soldier concept is gone. Individual units for economic roles, and battalions for war.
But CS concept is a core idea of 0 a.d... (I don't like at all)

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

2 hours ago, av93 said:

Battalions could work if the citizien-soldier concept is gone. Individual units for economic roles, and battalions for war.
But CS concept is a core idea of 0 a.d... (I don't like at all)

I have talk about how the CS concept do not need to be dropped in favor of battalion. Battalions can still perform like citizen-soldiers.

[DarcReaver]

Gone for half a year. Anything happened yet?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

8 minutes ago, DarcReaver said:

Gone for half a year. Anything happened yet?

Nothing on the battlaions have been done, but other things like individual upgrade towers and (some) units are implemented. So, select individual wooden tower and "upgrade" it to stone for 100 stone cost. Select a Hypaspist and "upgrade" him to Argyraspis (Silver Shield) for 10 metal. Thing like that. Also start on a Scythian civ, but stalled. Now that upgrade fearure is possible though, I think a nomadic civ like Scythians now a possibility (but I will need use the Celtic art assets for now).

Edited August 26, 2016 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[DarcReaver]

4 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Nothing on the battlaions have been done, but other things like individual upgrade towers and (some) units are implemented. So, select individual wooden tower and "upgrade" it to stone for 100 stone cost. Select a Hypaspist and "upgrade" him to Argyraspis (Silver Shield) for 10 metal. Thing like that. Also start on a Scythian civ, but stalled. Now that upgrade fearure is possible though, I think a nomadic civ like Scythians now a possibility (but I will need use the Celtic art assets for now).

Actually, that is at least something.

And I found something else:

http://trac.wildfiregames.com/changeset/18421

"Training units in batches is now allowed". That is another preset for a battalion system. If now someone tries to include a squad system this might work out.

[imperium]

My idea...
For me there should the unit be divided into battalions, but I would like taking a group of women or units there is an option to create a battalion, but I would not producing once you produce a unit or group of women, I would like that units produced or women if the player wants can gather them into a battalion ...
 

[DarcReaver]

5 hours ago, imperium said:

My idea...
For me there should the unit be divided into battalions, but I would like taking a group of women or units there is an option to create a battalion, but I would not producing once you produce a unit or group of women, I would like that units produced or women if the player wants can gather them into a battalion ...
 

Discussed before. How does that improve the concept? Apart from making it more complicated without any benefit.

[imperium]

why should it be complex ??
just select 5 units Click a button and you check a battalion ...

[DarcReaver]

1 hour ago, imperium said:

why should it be complex ??
just select 5 units Click a button and you check a battalion ...

Because you have no clue thats why. Has all been discussed in this thread before.

[feneur]

30 minutes ago, DarcReaver said:

Because you have no clue thats why. Has all been discussed in this thread before.

Please try and be a bit more polite. I can understand your frustration, but still, a nicer tone helps

[imperium]

what do you mean??
I have my own idea ... if you do not like you doing ...

[DarcReaver]

12 hours ago, feneur said:

Please try and be a bit more polite. I can understand your frustration, but still, a nicer tone helps

The posts are in this thread. It doesn't contain hundreds of posts on 20+ pages (which I would understand if someone doesn't read through those). It's only 3 pages long and takes 5-10 minutes to read through. If someone doesn't do that and comes up with a point that has been discussed 1(!) page earlier he certainly doesn't deserve a polite answer from my point of view. That's why I reacted the way I did.

In short the quotes that revolve around the single soldier <-> battalion mechanic. Hf reading.

On 16.10.2015 at 7:30 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I don't want that micro. Point of battalion is to remove tedious micro and focus on activity of groups of soldier instead (move micro away from one area toward a more interesting area like charging and flanking and shield walls and all that stuff; remember player only have finite amount of concentration). Plus with persistent battalion you can have cool upgrade and powerups that would be difficult to have without persist battalion.

 

On 16.10.2015 at 8:35 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Right and if that the case (I have play that game so you are right they are trained like 1 soldier at a time but then they gather into battalions on their own), then why not just train them as 1 battalion from the beginning instead of make the soldiers auto-form the battalion after they are trained? Makes unnecessary step your way. Just skip that step and make them battalion friom the beginning.

 

On 16.10.2015 at 6:30 PM, DarcReaver said:

How do you want to make the "micro automatic" ? Units form battalions by themselves on their behalf? So in the middle of a fight your army suddenly moves back from the enemy and starts forming a phalanx because 2 additional soldiers arrived into the battle?

What's the point anyways.... single soldiers can't use formations, die faster, can't get included in the "experience" gain process from fighting, deal less damage and are more tedious to micro. Either use battalion combat or don't. But don't mix it because it's stupid.

Because that would be too easy to implement, to design and to balance. Tt's definately important to water down the concept so it won't work at all anymore. The only units that ever should be single units are expensive key units like elephants, siege or chariots or something like that.

 

On 28.1.2016 at 10:31 PM, DarcReaver said:

From what I've read in the vision 0 ad sounds a bit like an RTS version of a total war game, not really an AoE clone. Less focus on economy (yet still you need to manage several resources which is a good thing) and more focus on armies and unit compositions. That's why I think 0 ad should use a battalion system instead of individual units. Right now the individual unit management is very tedious and keeps you away from fighting. Also, because all gatherers work as combat units its very hard to apply pressure on the enemy as I've stated numerous times already.

I'd really advise to have a look at this.

 

Edited August 28, 2016 by DarcReaver

[Lion.Kanzen]

http://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/FormationsWip

if we create a ticket for this, will be in vanilla game. 

Edited November 7, 2016 by Lion.Kanzen

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

12 hours ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

http://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/FormationsWip

if we create a ticket for this, will be in vanilla game. 

It's obvious in that document that Approach A was the approach the author wanted to go regardless of evertything said in this thread (and other threads), because I already adequately address all of the issue brought up against Approach B (real battalions).Quite a disappointment. Also, the morale part is completely unnecessary. You want morale, but think persistent battalions are a complication. OKAYYYY. I'll just see how the public mod does it and mod it from there.

Edited November 8, 2016 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Lion.Kanzen]

16 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

It's obvious in that document that Approach A was the approach the author wanted to go regardless of evertything said in this thread (and other threads), because I already adequately address all of the issue brought up against Approach B (real battalions).Quite a disappointment. Also, the morale part is completely unnecessary. You want morale, but think persistent battalions are a complication. OKAYYYY. I'll just see how the public mod does it and mod it from there.

Can be remade, but the possibility to add are there. Is in the trac, now the question is how will work?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

5 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Can be remade, but the possibility to add are there. Is in the trac, now the question is how will work?

It is in that link how would work. 

I like the movement in detail section.

 

Quote

C2: Too narrow target location (alternative path) ¶

TODO: This is where it gets difficult. Maybe this needs another testcase that elaborates on the behaviour.

1. Does the formation use the same behaviour as in C1 or does it try to position units outside of the wooden walls too, trying to keep the formation shape?
   • Different behaviour might be wanted depending on how much distance (real walk distance, not linear distance) units have to cover to reach that spot.
   • The player might not want units to walk through the narrow gap and take the way on the front if enemy units are there.

 

I think the formation should "fall in" and narrow itself to march through the narrow path.

Edited November 8, 2016 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]