Color Theory and Game Textures

[sanderd17]

Hmm, I think we set off on the wrong foot, mostly due to language, which is a pity, since the things pointed out seem to be correct (though I'm a true programmer and have no artist eye at all).

kicking_bird, I think it would be best to convince us by creating a mod with some modified textures. Either replacing/modifying existing textures (if they fit in the same context), or making new textures that can be used on new maps.

If you want more help on how to create a mod, please join the #0ad-dev chatroom on quakenet: https://kiwiirc.com/client/irc.quakenet.org/0ad-dev

It's easy to merge mod stuff into the main game, so it's not because you're starting as a mod that it won't get included in the main game. Mods are just a good way to showcase new things.

[Stan`]

Let´s wait for the weeken ´d we ´ll have a nice surprise Ibelieve.

[historic_bruno]

You are never supposed to use "pure white" in game, which explains why a lot of you textures are over exposed and had color grading in them. You are supposed to use grey or a toned down white. AOE3 has lighting helpers.

As stated, it was only an example to show normal mapping on terrain, which you claimed doesn't work I'm not a texture artist, so I'm not about to attempt a more realistic example, but if you want to try, that's how it's done.

The current terrain textures weren't selected with that in mind, however, because it wasn't implemented at the time.

[LordGood]

pfff haha, what a thread!

Wish my hands weren't tied with this whole hard drive failure thing.

I have to say, my images arent loading but it seems passions are quite high

seeing how youve handled this mess, id hate to see you in the position of art lead kicking bird. A lot of hard work has gone into this project; if you cant see that then you are not a suitable candidate to lead a team of volunteer artists.

[Giotto]

Look, as things stand we have an applicant who is clearly skilled in the use of art. It would be great it we could just set aside all these meaningless verbal attacks and focus on making the game better. We got off on the wrong foot so let's just shut up about it and move on. Because this is a forum, tone can come out rather different to different people. Critisism can seem aggressive or insightful depending on your viewpoint. Seriously, this is getting ridiculous.

[LordGood]

this thread started rediculous, forgive my temper, but in light of recent events, im a little short on patience. i stand by what i say in that this is no way to treat your team.

Seeing how many members you managed to piss off already should be indication that a change in attitude is needed. As im browsing on my phone all i can criticize is conduct.

If we're talking about calming down ground textures a bit sure, i'm all for it. stealth mechanics would be neat but seeing how units can be seen through buildings, thats not really a goal here.

Dont make them too boring, now.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I checked them out and they look nice from standard camera view (in my opinion) and the same goes for the color but they blend horribly with (actually not at all). Not because of the colors but you would see quads and lines when painting across them with other textures.

This is terrain blend issue, not problem with texture.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

You said Stans textures are blurry, I don't know what you're saying dude.

What is a scattershot, it sounds like you are trying to type screenshot and going all old English on me. And I said for the fourth time now, I'll be back on the weekend with new textures and the persian wonder wip. Stan told me you need a wonder so thats what im working on. I have class now so keep it cool on here, bye.

Stan's texture are blurry. He say so himself. I then improve them, but that was in a different post. And English not my first language but scattershot seem like a simple word to parse even for me (it is English word of course).

scat·ter·shot

ˈskatərˌSHät/

adjective

1. denoting something that is broad but random and haphazard in its range.

   "a scattershot collection of stories"

Meaninh, eh hem, that because of the length of time the game is be develop, the development of the art for the game has been (of course understandable) scattershot. Are you native English speaker? If not perhap that is why your tone sound like "I just learned this all in art theory 101 and now I school all you fools." My misunderstanding. Please continue and hopefully this weekend you teach us art theory 102. Syllabus: How to overhaul 8 years of artwork to remove highlight and shadow from diffuse texture and edit massive number of XML files to include new materials and new specular maps; and adjust all colors in all textures in whole game to conform to 255 color pallette like 1999 AOK.

But if you think terrain "fly under the radar" you are mistaken. It is obvious that the focus lately has been on civilization model and asset. And lately there have been push to improve unit mesh for better silhouette and aesthetic and animation. You came here under mistake assumption. Many mistaken assumption and you still don't see it.

As History_Bruno said:

The current terrain textures weren't selected with that in mind, however, because it wasn't implemented at the time.

Easy to undersyand evern by fool like me who obviously has no art training and can;t make a scene look good to save his life. I am no good for aesthetic... I have no idea how to make game look good...

I don't think anyone disagree with your argument that the terrain need work. That was obvious. people jhad other priorities. You should have come to community, integrated, check out workflow, come up with idea that fits with workflow and idea of the game, and then make pitch. You would have better reception, like digital instead of analog*.

Stan told me you need a wonder so thats what im working on

That is great. Wonder for Persians was decide to be Gate of All Nations at Persepolis (one of those boring history places). persian building texture in the game is very good and probably closer to what you think is good.

Edited March 12, 2015 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Stan`]

The last XML part I did ;P

What are the current worse textures in the game ?

Edited March 12, 2015 by stanislas69

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

The last XML part I did ;P

What are the current worse textures in the game ?

Probably one that are too directional. Some look like they were made that way to simulate geometry at time when geometry was expensive to render. Now, we can easily add bush and grass object when before they needed be in terrain texture. I think some of the "tile" textures could use better normal map made with better method than just throwing diffuse into normal map plugin. The normal map made with Photoshop or other app are many times too busy and grainy and not geometricallyy accurate. Best now to make normal map in Blender. Ask Enrique who bake normal map for his texture.

Edited March 12, 2015 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[niektb]

For your info: the blendfile Enrique used to create the Han Chinese texture (http://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=18078&p=295763) can be found here: http://trac.wildfiregames.com/browser/art_source/trunk/art/textures/skins/structural/china/blends

[Stan`]

Well alpha blending is really performance heavy http://wildfiregames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19659#entry304257 We are trying to make big meshes to insure quality while keeping acceptable performance...

[historic_bruno]

What happened to these terrains.................

The first two screenshots are just pre-release eye candy, I believe, to make something that looked impressive but wasn't exactly practical, possibly for trailers - thus the heavy use of alpha grass textures (need someone who was around back then to comment). The third is a much more primitive state of the game, you can tell from the models.

One thing is the lighting model of the engine has changed since then, that doesn't change the source textures obviously, but I think if you loaded the same maps, models and textures in the engine today, they would look different (better or worse, I can't say). Even now, if you set the renderer to fixed function vs. shader it looks very different, similarly if you have minimal graphics options enabled vs. maximum. So we need to tweak the rendering or the textures themselves, perhaps both. I remember there were quite a bit of lighting adjustments required for the changes around ~2012, it doesn't look the same and it may be brighter in general.

Finally, you could delve into SVN history and find the terrain textures from that time period and see if they are different, how they changed. You could even install one of the old alpha/pre-alphas from that era - much better than screenshots.

[ubik]

I think this is an important topic, albeit a difficult one to address due to the complexity of the community working on it. I'm sorry to see comments like 'history is boring' on this forum, because historical accuracy is a central element in this project.

I'd love to see more specific suggestions and links to tutorials that could improve the knowledge and understanding of the artists working on the game. I myself am skilled with programs like Gimp, but have no experience drawing textures for games like this, so I would have to learn the basics before I could contribute.

One specific point I had trouble with was finding the bushes with the berries on the mainland map. Everything seems to be the same color in the vegetation. This could probably be improved with a few tweaks in the colors of the surrounding vegetation?

Or it all could be a case of "The grass is greener in the other game"

[Lion.Kanzen]

I think the bushes could be diferent green hue may be more dark( brightness) and less yellow(hue)

[historic_bruno]

One specific point I had trouble with was finding the bushes with the berries on the mainland map. Everything seems to be the same color in the vegetation. This could probably be improved with a few tweaks in the colors of the surrounding vegetation?

I think that goes back to the valid point being made here, which is that gameplay things get lost in purely decorative things like terrain texture. Apart from modifying the terrains, maybe fruit trees and berry bushes should have larger, more exaggerated fruit to be visible from a distance. The important thing really isn't how great they look or their accuracy, but that the player sees them and instantly thinks "fruit, I can forage those". Side by side, I can't tell much difference between our apple trees and plain wood trees.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Yeah, like AOE 3. Is more easy to pick up the bush with mouse and easly to view and distinguish

[Giotto]

I like how they look real at the moment. Increase the contrast or size of the fruit but leave the rest of the bush the way it is.

[Lion.Kanzen]

I change the Hue

Edited March 13, 2015 by Lion.Kanzen

[Giotto]

Like the 2nd one. Is it possible for the colouring to change depending on the tile it is on? Can't really imagine that on a desert map. Maybe just multiple models.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Hmm, I think it would be good to make the fruit bigger and redder. Also, could make decal for beneath them so they stand out. Liked the original color of the leaves a little better than the hue you made Lion. Maybe keep experiment to get a good color.

[Lion.Kanzen]

My purpose is make similar to AOE or make it more visible than before, may be less dark

[wraitii]

The obvious thing with bushes is that they're generally the exact same color as everything around them.

Except in some rare cases:

One solution would be to make them much darker. Another would be to have much redder, bigger berries (or berry packs) as currently this red color isn't very visible which really doesn't help (I mean bushes will generally have to remain green). Lighter bushes would make the green stand out more, or quite darker ones. We need to care about R/G daltonism though so playing on contrast would be important too here.

My personal opinion is that it's actually a mesh problem as currently they're just round blobs and the edges really blend a lot.

[Enrique]

The best solution IMO is to set the colors for bushes, trees with food, etc (objects that the player can interact with) and more or less ban those values from terrain/tweak terrain values to not be the same as the collectable ones.

[ubik]

The best solution IMO is to set the colors for bushes, trees with food, etc (objects that the player can interact with) and more or less ban those values from terrain/tweak terrain values to not be the same as the collectable ones.

Would this be achieved simply through the texture map or would meshes have to be reworked? I could probably take care of this myself if it's just a question of modifying the texture.

Also, I do love the vegetation the way it is, and now I've developped an eye for finding those berries.