Technologies discussion

[niektb]

This has been answered already, but especially for you, again:

Sometimes you have to change your strategy in the game... paired techs do not allow this.

...unless you combine them in tiers as I suggested...

Edit: wowgetoffyourcellphone was first

Edited October 28, 2014 by niektb

[iNcog]

What is bad with that? With the pairs, the player chooses a tree that is to her advantage for the strategy she has chosen (same for the civ, she would choose the civ that best suits her play style, is this bad? Choosing a civ is not reversible in the middle of a game either). If she wants to do a different strategy next game, then she would probably use a different tree that she has found through trial and error best suits her new strategy.

Let's stick to the slinger rush example.

If I'm going to rush someone with slingers, it means that I'm going to invest all of my early game resources into getting out the largest possible amount of slingers for a certain, early, timing. Let's say I make a build so that I can get out 30 slingers at 8 minutes into the game. yet, if I get the stone gathering upgrade, I can get an extra batch in, say 35 slingers at 8 minutes.

If getting the +15% stone gathering upgrade means that I can't get the +15% metal gathering upgrade, it means that if I want to use my build to slinger rush, I'm going to penalize my metal income throughout the game. In the long run, that means that my opponent will have an advantage over me, since generally speaking metal is a more important resource than stone. Yes, gathering upgrades are tiered, so I'll still have some research done for metal. My opponent will still have a 15% bonus in metal income compared to me. So, by choosing to slinger rush, I am choosing to penalize myself. This means that in theory, I will probably not want to slinger rush, I'll just stick to something else that is more efficient, i.e. I'll rush with units that cost wood instead of stone.

Now, imagine that I can get the +15% stone gathering upgrade but later on I can still research the +15% metal gathering upgrade. This means that I am able to execute my slinger rush without penalizing myself in the later stages of the game.

Unlocking techs from being paired means that everyone has more flexibility. That in turn means that you have bigger variety of possible strategies. A slinger rush is a strategy that revolves around using the slinger, which is a fairly unique unit, to gain an early military advantage which the rusher will attempt to turn into an advantage in the game. The rusher will seek to find an edge over his opponent thanks to slingers. A player won't rush to get an edge early game, if he's going to lose that edge because he choose the overall inferior tech.

Pairing technologies essentially means that players are going to prefer to use strategies that involve using the overall better or more useful tech. So that just means that players will have less "good" techs to work with and it means that we will find a lower amount of strategies.

[kosmo]

@iNcog

I guess the point is that if you do slinger rush, you should weigh if the extra 5 slingers you can get out (and the bonus throughout the rest of the game) do more damage to the opponent than to your future development.

If you've chosen "wrongly" in the beginning, you have to "suffer" later on, quite realistic in my opinion.

While I kind of like the option of researching the "dismissed" techs in more advanced phases, I think they should be very expensive, so that you may be able to get some additional techs through this path, but not all.

Imho tech pairing is one of the points that made this game stand out.

[iNcog]

@iNcog

I guess the point is that if you do slinger rush, you should weigh if the extra 5 slingers you can get out (and the bonus throughout the rest of the game) do more damage to the opponent than to your future development.

If you've chosen "wrongly" in the beginning, you have to "suffer" later on, quite realistic in my opinion.

While I kind of like the option of researching the "dismissed" techs in more advanced phases, I think they should be very expensive, so that you may be able to get some additional techs through this path, but not all.

Imho tech pairing is one of the points that made this game stand out.

The thing is, once you've chosen "wrongly", you won't make that "wrong" decision anymore in subsequent games. So getting the stone gathering tech for example is a tech that won't ever be researched, since it's the "wrong" tech to get.

Again, this is a simple example, but it goes to show how pairing techs is counter-productive. Once people figure out which techs are better, the "lesser" techs will be generally ignored. At that point, you might as well remove them from the game. That's why I like that they aren't paired anymore.

Furthermore, imagine that I want to play a stylistic, economy-based game. To do so, I'm going to get as many economic upgrades as I can. If I can get 4 economic upgrades, my defensive, eco-heavy play will be stronger, since I got more eco upgrades. If I can only get 2 out of 4 upgrades, then I can't really play an eco-heavy strategy. If I can only get 2 out of 4 economic upgrades, then it becomes difficult for me to obtain an edge using economic upgrades and defensive play. Stylistic play becomes nerfed since everyone is forced to use more or less the same tools. That just doesn't sit right in an RTS game.

[niektb]

I think stone has a broader usage than creating slingers only (correct me if I'm wrong).

When you look at the tech tree of the Britons Slingers are indeed the only units that cost stone, but what do you think of Walls, Towers and Fortresses? Also the rotary mills cost stone which can boost your farming. Researching the stone tech doesn't necessarily penalize you in the long run. Right?

[iNcog]

I think stone has a broader usage than creating slingers only (correct me if I'm wrong).

When you look at the tech tree of the Britons Slingers are indeed the only units that cost stone, but what do you think of Walls, Towers and Fortresses? Also the rotary mills cost stone which can boost your farming. Researching the stone tech doesn't necessarily penalize you in the long run. Right?

well units which cost metal are more important than static defense as far as i know. you're looking to trade units in an rts, generally speaking, so the more cost-efficient it is to produce a said unit, the better. static defense isn't really >meant< to be spammed.

i understand your point, its' just that i don't think that pairing those two techs is useful at all. it just has too many negative aspects to it compared to the positive things you get with unpaired techs.

this goes for storehouse and blacksmith techs however i'm sure that there are some other upgrades which would pair up nicely. though those should be a few niche upgrades, not every upgrade in the game

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Instead of fighting I come up with new idea that is best of all worlds IMHO.

Imagine a tech web, instead of a tech tree:

You start at the top and research downward. Each new web strand makes 2 other strand become available. Of course the ages still unlock the those rows of techs, but you can always go back and research any available technology. Eventially you can research them all if you have enough time and money, but it still makes it so there are choices like the pairs (but different and better, you can go back and research what you chose not to research before). Every building with techs could have such a web as this. Of course some bigger than others.

(my mod includes Imperial Phase, so just ignore that part, because vanilla game does not have this phase)

Edited October 30, 2014 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[niektb]

This. web. looks. very. cool!

There is only one issue I see, how do we implement that in the GUI?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

This. web. looks. very. cool!

There is only one issue I see, how do we implement that in the GUI?

I do not know. I can maybe see giving each tech a row and # ID so that they are placed in the web correctly. It will take some imagination.

[iNcog]

It's not really about fighting. To put it simply, ideas evolve more quickly and more efficiently when they are being discussed. Discussion is very important for any idea to go forwards. It's one of the reasons that Socrates never wrote down anything and all his lessons were done verbally. He believed that it was the only way to truly teach. I for one think that he's not far from the truth.

I actually kind of like your idea, I think it's very interesting however since it's such a new concept (I can't think of another RTS that does this), a lot of thought will have to go into it if it's ever going to be implemented.

I still like the idea, for example:

The hoplon measured roughly 1 metre (3.28 feet) in diameter and weighed about 7.26 kilograms (16 pounds). This large shield was made possible partly by its shape, which allowed it to be supported on the shoulder. The revolutionary part of the shield was, in fact, the grip. Known as an Argive grip, it placed the handle at the edge of the shield, and was supported by a leather fastening (for the forearm) at the centre. This allowed hoplites more mobility with the shield, as well as the ability to capitalize on their offensive capabilities and better support the phalanx. The shield rested on a man's shoulders, stretching down the knees. These large shields were designed for a mass of hoplites to push forward into the opposing army, and it was their most essential equipment. By forming a human wall to provide a powerful defensive armour, the Hoplites became invincible in battle.

Hoplites are armed with round shields named Hoplons. We can imagine a "Hoplon" upgrade which would be the development of these hoplon shields. There would two prerequisites to getting this upgrade though, one of them would be named "leather working". "leather working" allows for hoplons to be upgraded, however it also allows for "leather armor" to be researched. So the upgrade "leather working" is a prerequisite to getting two different upgrades. The second prerequisite needed to research hoplons would be "levy infantry", which is upgrade that reduces infantry training time. You need both of those prerequisites to research the "hoplons" upgrade.

You could make different webs for different civilizations. I actually think it's a pretty neat idea, but one that will take a lot of time and effort to implement, not to mention balance.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Hoplites are armed with round shields named Hoplons. We can imagine a "Hoplon" upgrade which would be the development of these hoplon shields. There would two prerequisites to getting this upgrade though, one of them would be named "leather working". "leather working" allows for hoplons to be upgraded, however it also allows for "leather armor" to be researched. So the upgrade "leather working" is a prerequisite to getting two different upgrades. The second prerequisite needed to research hoplons would be "levy infantry", which is upgrade that reduces infantry training time. You need both of those prerequisites to research the "hoplons" upgrade.

You could make different webs for different civilizations. I actually think it's a pretty neat idea, but one that will take a lot of time and effort to implement, not to mention balance.

Hoplite shield was called aspis (hoplon simply means weapons of war), but let's not fight over this small trivia.

But I like prerequisits as you mention and the tech web I make up there is all about prerequisites. Everything unlocks more things. The web I post there is the blacksmith web I imagine for my mod (the current version of my mod has most of these techs as pairs,because web is not implemented of course!) for the Seleucid Empire. Some of it is standard for all civs, but it gets more custom as you go down the web. So, at the top you have your first two choices: Metallurgy (-25% Blacksmith techs resource cost) or Forging (-50% blacksmiths techs research time). You can choose to research one and then go downward from that, or research one and thenthe other, opening up more techs below them (as you see in the chart). Or research one (Forging for example) and follow its web for a while, and later research the other to open up its web. However you want to do it.

Below those, there are 3 "focuses": Hand-to-hand Melee Infantry, Range Infantry, and Cavalry. You can see what I am doing as you look down the web. I point out the area between the Ranged and Cavalry. You can see techs that can apply to both. Same for between Melee Infantry and Range Infantry (you can research Iphicrates Boots to make both melee and range infantry faster, below that you see the dagger that can give a dagger to both melee and range infantry, and so it goes). The farther you look to the sides the more specific the techs are, so the techs to the left are only melee infantry and the techs to the right are only cavalry. Toward the bottom on the cavalry side you start to see specific techs for chariots (Heavy Scythes) and elephants (Elephant Armor). And at the very bottom you get very strong (cost 1000+ resources) techs.

Edited October 30, 2014 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

This. web. looks. very. cool!

There is only one issue I see, how do we implement that in the GUI?

Had a thought. I do not think it would fit into the hud at the bottom of the screen. Would probably have a button where the techs go now that launches a medium window (maybe launches it over the HUD instead of the middle of the screen so you can still see stuff happening).

[Stan`]

Maybe something like AOM tech phases.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Hint of my tech mod. I am using some icons from Age of Empires right now, so I can't release it yet.

[s0600204]

I do not know. I can maybe see giving each tech a row and # ID so that they are placed in the web correctly. It will take some imagination.

Or you could make sure that each tech in the web has, within its JSON description, the tech codes of its immediate dependancies, and then draw the web procedurally.

Anyhow, pursuing your web idea further, do you propose a single unified web for each civilisation, with military and economic techs in the same web; several webs for each civ, with one web for economic, one for military, etc; or that each building in the game capable of researching techs should have it own, specific, web?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Anyhow, pursuing your web idea further, do you propose a single unified web for each civilisation, with military and economic techs in the same web; several webs for each civ, with one web for economic, one for military, etc; or that each building in the game capable of researching techs should have it own, specific, web?

I was imagining one for each building. Blacksmith, Barracks, Storehouse, etc. The Blacksmith would probably be the largest and most customized for each civ. But I would say that 75% of the techs would be shared by all civs, 50% at least. Many of the differences could be as simple as one civ researching a tech sooner than another in their web, and like in Age of Empires some civs just won't have a few of the techs that others do, while maybe 20% or so would be completely different to make the civs different (most civs are relatively the same at the start of the game, becoming more and more different as the game progresses because of research and different units available). In my mod, the civilcenter trains female and 1 melee infantryman. Then build the barracks and all of the civ's citizen soldiers units are available at village phase from the barracks. This helps balance at the beginning (player has access to wider variety of counters... speaking of which my mod puts hard counters back into the game and the old formations). About the web, yes, it would be possible to do it procedurally too. It's just dependencies are harder to visualize by the modder (me, haha), but I guess the modder could just draw a chart out first before adding the dependencies to the technologies json (now that I think about it row IDs and all that would probably be just as hard to visualie, so yes I agree with procedural).

Edited October 30, 2014 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[rolf.sievers]

Drawing the web procedurally still does not account for the orientation. (It could be randomly flipped from left to right) Some additional Information needs to be given. But the implementation details will be up to the person implementing them anyway.

I like the tech web as well. With the massive amount of technology I suspect “tech mod” to ship, one tree per building is appropriate. Other mods might want to use less trees. (Assuming the implementation is flexible enough to be reused.)

To prevent some micro on research: When considering the technology tree of the blacksmith, there isn't really a reason to bind it to a specific blacksmith. (As you won't use the blacksmith to recruit units.) The number of blacksmiths in play determines how many technologies may be researched at once. Any of them should be able to take orders for all of them.

This applies to all research buildings which do not produce units.

One further note on engine requirement: The 2nd level Technology “Archery“ depends on only one (“Smelting” or „Glowing Sword“). Is that something already supported?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Drawing the web procedurally still does not account for the orientation. (It could be randomly flipped from left to right) Some additional Information needs to be given. But the implementation details will be up to the person implementing them anyway.

Yes, this is true. But one can imagine it not being too complex.

I like the tech web as well. With the massive amount of technology I suspect “tech mod” to ship, one tree per building is appropriate. Other mods might want to use less trees. (Assuming the implementation is flexible enough to be reused.)

My tech mod will probably not have the web bcuz I am not a programmer. I propose the web for the develiper's game, but if they don't like it or don't want to do it, I can make my own tracker and enlist helpers.

To prevent some micro on research: When considering the technology tree of the blacksmith, there isn't really a reason to bind it to a specific blacksmith. (As you won't use the blacksmith to recruit units.) The number of blacksmiths in play determines how many technologies may be researched at once. Any of them should be able to take orders for all of them.

I can imagine if the player had 2 blacksmiths the web window could have a "2" in the corner telling the player how many credits (or smiths?) they can use, so 1 credit(smith) per tech. Choose a tech and the 2 goes down to 1.

One further note on engine requirement: The 2nd level Technology “Archery“ depends on only one (“Smelting” or „Glowing Sword“). Is that something already supported?

In my sample image the yellow strands mean those techs are unlocked because the previous tech has been researched. The green strands point to the techs that have been researched. Black strands mean those techs are not available yet because the one above them has not been researched yet. Most techs in the web, except those on the outside, can be unlocked by 2 other techs above them. The archery focus one was unlocked by Metallurgy because Metallurgy was researched. It could have been unlocked by Forging too,but wasn't. Either way it is now unlocked (in this example). Think of it like a pachinko machine (or pinball machine), except you control the ball. Edited October 30, 2014 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[GunChleoc]

Drawing the web procedurally still does not account for the orientation. (It could be randomly flipped from left to right) Some additional Information needs to be given. But the implementation details will be up to the person implementing them anyway.

The implementation could be similar to a binary search tree: Every node (= tech) would have a left child and/or a right child (except for the leaves), but instead of just one parent, every node would have a left parent and a right parent (except for the root node).

[rolf.sievers]

My tech mod will probably not have the web bcuz I am not a programmer. I propose the web for the develiper's game, but if they don't like it or don't want to do it, I can make my own tracker and enlist helpers.

I can imagine if the player had 2 blacksmiths the web window could have a "2" in the corner telling the player how many credits (or smiths?) they can use, so 1 credit(smith) per tech. Choose a tech and the 2 goes down to 1.

I think that would make a nice change to the main game as well. I would strongly prefer it over the current system.

If it isn't approved for 0ad, would you want it in your mod anyway? (Technology trees are a feature I would like to implement (After I did some other stuff to familiarize myself with the codebase.))

In my sample image the yellow strands mean those techs are unlocked because the previous tech has been researched. The green strands point to the techs that have been researched. Black strands mean those techs are not available yet because the one above them has not been researched yet. Most techs in the web, except those on the outside, can be unlocked by 2 other techs above them. The archery focus one was unlocked by Metallurgy because Metallurgy was researched. It could have been unlocked by Forging too,but wasn't. Either way it is now unlocked (in this example). Think of it like a pachinko machine (or pinball machine), except you control the ball.

Sorry about the miscommunication: I understood that perfectly well, but I was wondering, whether the engine (pyrogenesis/0ad) already supports that type of dependency. It doesn't really matter. There is stuff to implement and that just adds an extra detail.

[iNcog]

It should be difficult at all to implement that kind of dependency. Admittedly, I can't code a program to solve simple math problems, but I don't think it should be that hard to implement at all. We already have aging which is an upgrade that depends on the amount of buildings that you have.

The biggest difficulty by far is making a web that intuitively makes sense and doesn't complicate things too much. There are other things to consider as well. Imagine I want a certain set of upgrades or a certain set of buildings. Will there be several possible paths to obtain that certain set, or will those paths limit the options I have early game.

In traditional RTS, like Starcraft for instance, you have a kind of funnel. Rather than explaining it, I'll upload a paint image.

http://i.imgur.com/C5PPymB.png

Essentially, in starcraft you have a large amount of possible early game openings, then you'll go for a certain mid-game position which is more or less the same regardless of what you opened with (there are exceptions of course).

my question is whether or not a tech web as opposed to a tech tree will reduce the amount of possible early game builds? it's a question that I think can only be answered when considering very precise elements.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Technology Web:

my question is whether or not a tech web as opposed to a tech tree will reduce the amount of possible early game builds? it's a question that I think can only be answered when considering very precise elements.

I do not see how this is an issue compared to a regular tree design.Ina regular tree it is very linear where one tech just unlocks another one (a->b-c). In a web each choice unlocks 2 more choice. I imagine this allows for bigger variety of builds not lesser. Players can figure out different paths for their different strategies and try to find optimal paths for their play style. Some paths may be used more than others but that is okay because the lesser traveled paths still give an option in case of an unusual situation or surprising move by the opponent. Overall it is way more powerful and responsive to the needs of the player than both the linear design being used now and the pair design.

4th Phase:

I also propose a 4th phase for the game (it is in my local mod and works great, I explain). What I have done is move civil centers to City phase and then have a 4th phase for uber stuff. Moving the civil centers to 3rd phase in a 4-phase game makes the player focus on his first town before building new towns. I know this makes everyone change their strategies they have developed with the alphas, but change can be good. Attacks are still possible though and military focus is now toward dominating the land militarilly instead of with civil centers. You also have more time to scout, more time to research techs, and strategies like "fast city" or "fast imperial" are now possible. Also, deciding whether to focus on defenses like walls in town or use that stone for City phase tech and civil centers is now made better. Imperial (4th phase) is where I put all the strongest techs and they are very expensive. I am also experimenting by making the Imperial tech require that a Wonder be built. This makes Wonder impoertant to the regular non-Wonder game. I am also going to experiment with giving the Fortress a low build limit (1 or 3 or 5-maybe 1 in city and Imperial unlocks to 5, just experimenting on ways to make the fortress more interesting). I have also made catapults require a tech (ballistika) to be built which lessens the fact that some civs (rightly) get catapults and some do not.

Edited October 31, 2014 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Stan`]

Do you have a github repo for your mod ? Remove the icons

I like the idea of making the game a bit longer cause its how its done you don ´t build an army to attack before being able and having a reason to defend something.

Edited October 31, 2014 by stanislas69

[tau]

4th Phase:

Not sure if this discussion belongs to the techs thread, but tempted to ask: what is the (conceptual) difference between 1st and 2nd phases in this system?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Not sure if this discussion belongs to the techs thread, but tempted to ask: what is the (conceptual) difference between 1st and 2nd phases in this system?

1st phase is all economics, setting up food production, hunting, berry pickings, setting up your farms, scouting, and all the rest. 2nd phase you get the military upgrades at the barracks and walls and towers are unlocked and you can start to make significant military research at the blacksmith. That's not to say you couldn't raid in the 1st phase (you get access to all citizesoldier types at the barracks, but you have to build it first and it is relatively expensive). I have also divided the Docks into a Docks (fishing, trading) and Shipyard (warships and warship research). Dock is 1st phase, Shipyard comes in 2nd phase.