Suggestions for 0 A.D.

[LienRag]

2 hours ago, zozio32 said:

You can maybe destroy some unit/building to rebalance the economy...

Buildings shoudn't cost maintenance, with (maybe) some rare exceptions.

Also it would need something more historical/logical than "destroying" units.

 

2 hours ago, zozio32 said:

If the citizen soldier is mobilised, i.e. is not working, then its cost should be accounted for as for any other proffesional units.

I would be against your proposition if it asks for maintenance for citizen-soldiers.

[zozio32]

3 minutes ago, LienRag said:

Buildings shoudn't cost maintenance, with (maybe) some rare exceptions.

Also it would need something more historical/logical than "destroying" units.

 

I would be against your proposition if it asks for maintenance for citizen-soldiers.

Could i ask why?   I mean, building do need maintenance otherwise they decay in the real world, and why citizen soldiers being military active should not have a cost to be sustained by the community?   my suggestions is not very definite, but I am interested in what motivate your point of view

 

[borg-]

50 minutes ago, zozio32 said:

Could i ask why?   I mean, building do need maintenance otherwise they decay in the real world, and why citizen soldiers being military active should not have a cost to be sustained by the community?   my suggestions is not very definite, but I am interested in what motivate your point of view

 

These changes are not part of the proposal and style that 0a.d seeks.

[zozio32]

17 minutes ago, borg- said:

These changes are not part of the proposal and style that 0a.d seeks.

ok,   there is a def somewhere of what 0a.d. seeks?   so that I don't spend long suggestion posts which are off topic?

or I gues i'll slowly learn that on the forum ;-)

Edited October 26, 2023 by zozio32
typo

[Norse_Harold]

14 minutes ago, zozio32 said:

there is a def somewhere of what 0a.d. seeks?

Yes. Check out the 0 A.D. Vision Document.

[zozio32]

14 minutes ago, Norse_Harold said:

Yes. Check out the 0 A.D. Vision Document.

well, I read the doc,   I don't see exactly how my suggestions are " are not part of the proposal and style that 0a.d seeks".   they'll take away a bit from the statement "Combat in the game plays the major role. Economic and political roles take a back seat to strategic warfare. ", but I think the combat would still be the main thing.

Anyway, it was just some suggestions

[phosit]

The OPEX cost would make the popcap a less hard limit. Which is good IMO.

[LienRag]

4 hours ago, zozio32 said:

Could i ask why?   I mean, building do need maintenance otherwise they decay in the real world, and why citizen soldiers being military active should not have a cost to be sustained by the community?   my suggestions is not very definite, but I am interested in what motivate your point of view

 

Because that would make a different game, while affecting only mercenaries/champions would make these units more distinct (adding variety to the game) while keeping the main gameplay similar.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

3 hours ago, zozio32 said:

ok,   there is a def somewhere of what 0a.d. seeks?   so that I don't spend long suggestion posts which are off topic?

or I gues i'll slowly learn that on the forum ;-)

Basically, the goal of 0ad is not to simulate. There are other games that do this extremely well. Adding details like the population needing a trickle of food, or buildings needing wood/stone for 'maintenance' is a detail that need not be simulated. In my opinion, this will only result in annoyance and inconsistency. What I mean by inconsistency is if we try our best to simulate some detail like the operational costs of the city, but keep other things abstracted, it results in a contradiction.

[zozio32]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Basically, the goal of 0ad is not to simulate. There are other games that do this extremely well. Adding details like the population needing a trickle of food, or buildings needing wood/stone for 'maintenance' is a detail that need not be simulated. In my opinion, this will only result in annoyance and inconsistency. What I mean by inconsistency is if we try our best to simulate some detail like the operational costs of the city, but keep other things abstracted, it results in a contradiction.

that's indeed the risk. The point is that I like to specificity of the citizen soldier, and we loose a bit this aspect at later stage in the game when the big powerful unit can be acquired. Having a mechanism that penalize a big ratio of unproductive unit over productive unit is therefore appealing and works towards the specificity of 0 A.D.

[man_s_our]

On 26/10/2023 at 11:02 AM, LienRag said:

Interesting indeed...

I'd be adamantly opposed to maintenance cost for citizen-soldiers, but getting one for professional units is indeed quite historical and could allow for a more varied gameplay.

Especially if we differentiate between soldiers and mercenaries...

The option to disband mercenaries, with disbanded mercenaries being added to a pool that can be recruited instantly by anybody (including Gaia as raiders) would make for some real strategic options.

 

The main concern with any maintenance system is what happens when the resource drops to zero.

in my mod, when a unit gets very hungry it will start looking for food. but if can't gather food. it will simply start losing health.

for the maintenance of buildings/mechanics, you can give them some small negative health change. and require resources for repairing generally.

Edited October 27, 2023 by man_s_our

[man_s_our]

On 26/10/2023 at 4:03 PM, zozio32 said:

Anyway, it was just some suggestions

these suggestions' fits more in the Realism mod than in public mod. since they're more about simulation than for fun.

[zozio32]

57 minutes ago, man_s_our said:

these suggestions' fits more in the Realism mod than in public mod. since they're more about simulation than for fun.

I might download that Mod! I was not aware of it.   Are you the person to ask for advice about how to do so?  

[man_s_our]

5 minutes ago, zozio32 said:

I might download that Mod! I was not aware of it.   Are you the person to ask for advice about how to do so?  

the mod is now is still in progress. but there is two steps left (completing UnitAI patch and adding the required XML files) for the first beta release.

the github link is in my sig.

[LienRag]

3 hours ago, man_s_our said:

in my mod, when a unit gets very hungry it will start looking for food. but if can't gather food. it will simply start losing health.

Foraging was of great strategic importance¹, so it's very nice to have that simulated.

How do you do so in your mod ? What do they consider "food" ?

 

¹ Basically, that's the reason for fortresses, as Brett Devereaux explains : most fortress are easy to bypass, but then they have a standing force able to interdict foraging (because it's strong enough to attack and destroy any foraging party, because to forage you have to disperse your units) and that's something no army of the time could afford.

[LienRag]

On 26/10/2023 at 7:57 PM, zozio32 said:

The point is that I like to specificity of the citizen soldier, and we loose a bit this aspect at later stage in the game when the big powerful unit can be acquired. Having a mechanism that penalize a big ratio of unproductive unit over productive unit is therefore appealing and works towards the specificity of 0 A.D.

This I can agree with.

Note that the Champion units already cost a lot, so it's sort of an abstraction for that penalization.

You'd have to design your OPEX mechanism to do sufficiently better so as to make the complexification worth it.

[JamesWright]

4 hours ago, LienRag said:

Note that the Champion units already cost a lot, so it's sort of an abstraction for that penalization.

It would be interesting to see how a lessening of the cost for champ units of one civ could affect their use, maybe the time cost. I just don't see champ units very often(at least not since those cursed iber fire chariots were spammed

[man_s_our]

9 hours ago, LienRag said:

Foraging was of great strategic importance¹, so it's very nice to have that simulated.

How do you do so in your mod ? What do they consider "food" ?

 

¹ Basically, that's the reason for fortresses, as Brett Devereaux explains : most fortress are easy to bypass, but then they have a standing force able to interdict foraging (because it's strong enough to attack and destroy any foraging party, because to forage you have to disperse your units) and that's something no army of the time could afford.

any resource related to food is considered food. that includes the animals, the fruits/grains and the food stocks that you can store it in your granary or send it to the battlefield to make a supply chain for your attacking troops.

it works by giving every unit a level of stored carbs that will be gradually reduced. and can be increased when it's carrying food resources. and when the stored carbs gets very low it tells the unit to go to look for food and when isn't hungry anymore it would complete the previous tasks.

[LienRag]

8 hours ago, man_s_our said:

any resource related to food is considered food. that includes the animals, the fruits/grains and the food stocks that you can store it in your granary or send it to the battlefield to make a supply chain for your attacking troops.

Nice !

You probably should also include houses, though.

[man_s_our]

1 hour ago, LienRag said:

Nice !

You probably should also include houses, though.

how?

you mean the garrisoned units?

[LienRag]

No, I mean as a source of food for soldiers.

(not the house itself of course, except if you have a termite army, but the food which is in it)

[man_s_our]

3 hours ago, LienRag said:

No, I mean as a source of food for soldiers.

(not the house itself of course, except if you have a termite army, but the food which is in it)

that may be implemented later after implementing per entity ownership mechanism. (for example, a citizen that doesn't own any house would build one for his family that will be the source of new units)

not sure whether family will be added in realism mod but will be a core part of the commander simulator.

[LienRag]

I meant more a food resource for enemy units.

[man_s_our]

8 minutes ago, LienRag said:

I meant more a food resource for enemy units.

once they reach the granaries they'll be able to plunder it.

but for now as long as houses are just a limiter for population instead of being homes for the population it has no meaning to simulate house related things.

Edited October 29, 2023 by man_s_our

[LienRag]

On 03/02/2023 at 4:12 PM, Akira Kurosawa said:

 It is unpleasant when 50 enemy units come out of almost captured barracks at a one time.

 

I'd say that it's probably very pleasant to your enemy...

If the enemy is able to play that well, then it should indeed be rewarded.