Faction: Norse

[niektb]

As player you get the idea that you can totally customise your civ (determining you own strategy) when you have a lot of technologies, instead of having it all initial. A good example of this is the Age of Chivalry: Hegemony mod for AoE2. This mod features a lot of techs and that makes it really a plus. Thats why I also want a lot of techs.

[niektb]

Not sure if it's a good idea, but should we implement self-healing to the basic viking warriors to boost raiding?

Edited December 19, 2013 by niektb

[sanderd17]

Not sure if it's a good idea, but should we implement self-healing to the basic viking warriors to boost raiding?

It's easy to test it out. The Health component has a RegenRate variable. That's the number of HP the health will increase per second when damaged (can be a decimal value).

[niektb]

An updated list:

Civ bonus:

Longboat is a mobile dropsite.

Start with additional wood, but less food.

Some units do heal themselves.

Team bonus:

?

Unique technologies:

Colonization of foreign soil (Player receives additional loot).

Clinker construction (Improves naval speed)

[Rodmar]

Plundering could be a function of the distance to the longboat. No longboat nearby, no or less plundering. This might encourage to launch river raids (where maps offer such opportunities).

Furthermore, I know that mobile dropsite are scheduled for nomadic civs, but what about having longboat not really like normal dropsite, but like "max capacity" dropsite, to force the player to put an end to the raid and to row/sail back to his base in order to unload the boat? This max capacity could be important but I mean, the side effect of letting a few citizen exploit the woods on an isolated island for the duration of the game, without founding a colony, is odd, isn't it?

[Lion.Kanzen]

Plundering could be a function of the distance to the longboat. No longboat nearby, no or less plundering. This might encourage to launch river raids (where maps offer such opportunities).

Furthermore, I know that mobile dropsite are scheduled for nomadic civs, but what about having longboat not really like normal dropsite, but like "max capacity" dropsite, to force the player to put an end to the raid and to row/sail back to his base in order to unload the boat? This max capacity could be important but I mean, the side effect of letting a few citizen exploit the woods on an isolated island for the duration of the game, without founding a colony, is odd, isn't it?

can be a interesting unit be amphibious can be convert a building in land and sea a warship.

[niektb]

Plundering could be a function of the distance to the longboat. No longboat nearby, no or less plundering. This might encourage to launch river raids (where maps offer such opportunities).

Furthermore, I know that mobile dropsite are scheduled for nomadic civs, but what about having longboat not really like normal dropsite, but like "max capacity" dropsite, to force the player to put an end to the raid and to row/sail back to his base in order to unload the boat? This max capacity could be important but I mean, the side effect of letting a few citizen exploit the woods on an isolated island for the duration of the game, without founding a colony, is odd, isn't it?

You got a point there, but I fear that's currently not possible with our team line-up. (No very skilled programmers, unless NoMolester is one.) I think that's something for in the future. Let us first start with things already implemented in the vanilla game. I'd say: we'll try first the uncapped way, if it turns out to be a really problem then we'll look to fix it. (A elephant who can carry unlimited resources is odd as well, isn't it?) We should try to balance realism with gameplay.

Something different:

Team bonus: Additional trade income.

Edited December 22, 2013 by niektb

[Lion.Kanzen]

You got a point there, but I fear that's currently not possible with our team line-up. (No very skilled programmers, unless NoMolester is one.) I think that's something for in the future. Let us first start with things already implemented in the vanilla game. I'd say: we'll try first the uncapped way, if it turns out to be a really problem then we'll look to fix it.

Something different:

Team bonus: Additional trade income.

we modders depends some main team coding for some features, and we need ask for them.

[sanderd17]

If plundering is just a bonus on the loot, it should be very easy to make an aura for the boat to enlarge that loot bonus.

Implementing a loot bonus would cost you something like 10-20 lines of code, with the ability to have it modifiable by techs and auras included.

If you remind me of it when the new version is released, I can commit it. But now we're in feature freeze.

Letting the boat return with resources will make it a lot more challenging. The pathfinder isn't the easiest part of the project. And this would require two sorts of paths to be synced in some way.

[Lion.Kanzen]

If plundering is just a bonus on the loot, it should be very easy to make an aura for the boat to enlarge that loot bonus.

Implementing a loot bonus would cost you something like 10-20 lines of code, with the ability to have it modifiable by techs and auras included.

If you remind me of it when the new version is released, I can commit it. But now we're in feature freeze.

Letting the boat return with resources will make it a lot more challenging. The pathfinder isn't the easiest part of the project. And this would require two sorts of paths to be synced in some way.

talking about the path , we can have two paths? I mean, land path and sea, and sea land units over a boat only walk in the boat don't try to reach outside, unless try to load in other boat/ ship/ raft/ sea platform.

[sanderd17]

I don't understand what you want. You can restrict units to certain types of terrain (max slope, min/max distance to shore, min/max water depth, ...), but currently, it's hard to get them to cooperate with other units, out to change their animation when they reach different terrain.

[niektb]

We'll leave it as it is right now, but the aura couldbe something for the future.

I'll add a team bonus for trade income and we'll move on to the land units:

I would to discuss the line-up, before stepping into details.

When doing some research into Viking arms and armour you'll encounter a lot of different things. Some are saying that bows weren't used by many, others say that the bow is part of the basic weaponry.

Some sources:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/vikings/weapons_01.shtml

http://www.vikingsonline.org.uk/resources/articles/combat.htm

http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/arms.htm

Citizen-soldiers:

Viking Warrior (Axemen / Swordsmen)

Viking Spearmen

Viking Skirmisher

Viking Bowmen

If possible we should try and use the native words for each class.

As far as I know the sword was the most favorite weapon, but also expensive and could only be afforded by wealthy people. On the contrary even the poorest owned an axe. The spear was also very common, sometimes thrown as well.

Champion soldiers:

Huscarl

Berserker

We'll do heroes later.

I've added no cavalry as I found that Vikings used horses but (almost) not in battle.

Furthermore I feel that we could use an extra champion soldier.

Edited December 27, 2013 by niektb

[niektb]

Viking Warrior

Type: Axemen / swordsmen, melee, infantry, citizen-soldier

Skills: swift, bonus vs. building, lower gathering rate.

This link is really useful:

http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/arms.htm

A lot of Viking wore a leather armor as it was lighter and cheaper. Some were also mail clad as the picture above shows. We should make texture variants to express the armor diversity.

http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/viking_mail.htm

The helmet as well divered:

http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/viking_helmets.htm

An example of a sword:

An example of an axe:

Shields:

(Front and back)

Edited December 27, 2013 by niektb

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

Realize that huscarls were more or less associated with the Anglo-Saxons, not Northmen. As far as horsemen went, the Normans (who were Norse to some extent) are shown in period pictures to field knights.

[niektb]

Realize that huscarls were more or less associated with the Anglo-Saxons, not Northmen. As far as horsemen went, the Normans (who were Norse to some extent) are shown in period pictures to field knights.

I know they were associated with Saxons, but note that that was after the conquest of the Danes in the 11th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housecarl

So the Saxon Housecarls officialy came from Scandinavia.

[niektb]

Viking Spearman

Basically the same stuff as the viking warrior with the exception of having a spear instead of a sword.

Type: spearman, melee, infantry, citizen-soldier

Skills: swift, bonus vs. cavalry, lower gathering rate.

The spear had different usages: It was wielded both one-handed and two-handed, it was used in melee as well as in skirmish.

http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/manufacturing/text/viking_spear.htm

The spearman could be merged with the skirmisher and the soldier would have an ability to throw a spear, This depends on if the vanilla game will feature abilities like Empire Earth did with the Roman Legionnaires.

[Rodmar]

I think that the problem with this mod's Northerners and mainstream Germans is that they could bear more than one main weapon depending on the situation.

From your sources, I see only three possible units:

- the huskarl/retinue/professional warrior;

- the landowner/farmer/levy;

- the bower (same as above, but more specialized and trained).

And the cost of the armament: shield < chop axe < war axe < spear < sword.

Only rich landowners would have two weapons (sword+sax f.e.), mail shirt and spare shields.

Basic shield would not endure many blows.

The huskarl would be a champion, heavy infantry unit.

spectacle-helm with its hauberk (protection of the neck and shoulders), mail shirt, reinforced shield, spear and sword (or axe).

The levy would be the citizen-soldier, a medium/heavy infantry.

Basic: fur/leather hat, cloth, simple shield (wooden planks), chop axe.

Advanced: iron spangenhelm with nasal, padded cloth, simple shield, spear or war axe.

Elite: iron spangenhelm (or bowl helm) with its mail hauberk, reinforced shield (linen, metal strips...), possibly mail shirt (?), sword.

The bowman would be the same as the levy (citizen) but with a bow and possibly at elite grade, a sax (and a decent mêlée hack damage).

Now, this lets apart the light spear throwers and the two handed spear bringers (without a shield), but it seems they were more "situational" fighters than specialized units.

[niektb]

What we currently have is the following:

- viking warrior. The basic viking soldier wielding an axe and light armour. The sword / mail could be used as a variant / upgrade.

- spearman. Basically the same, but a spear and the ability to throw it. (Whenever abilities come available in vanilla)

- bowmen.

- huskarl. Heavily armoured, axe-wielding champion soldier.

- at last I wanted to give the Vikings a special soldier: The Berserker. An aggressive soldier, with a two-handed axe, with high attack, but low (relatively) hitpoints.

[greenknight32]

Here's a good reference page about the Berserker: http://www.vikinganswerlady.com/berserke.shtml

I like the idea of using this version of the Berserker, wearing a wolf or bear hide with the animal's head for a helmet.

Edited January 3, 2014 by greenknight32

[Rodmar]

- at last I wanted to give the Vikings a special soldier: The Berserker. An aggressive soldier, with a two-handed axe, with high attack, but low (relatively) hitpoints.

or two whirling one-handed axes? It's even more aggressive! (The pole-axe is slower and quite defensive too)

[Romulus]

A typical Viking warrior was actually called a "Berzerker"

Berzerkers used any and every weapon available and often had a standard typical uniform with colours and helmets mildly being an exception.

This is the most common and standard berzerker helmet which is distinctive to the Vikings and Norse

Other varieties include:

A Viking king unit (once regicide is implemented) would be a Jarl unit.


If you going to be modding Vikings don't forget the infamous longboats... The perfect name for these ships will be "The Rova"

I would tend to make the Vikings more nomadic in the sense they don't have CC or many types of buildings, but port/docs and things like that where you can train all of their units.

Vikings don't build castles or forts, they build "longhouses"

They do build wooden walls.

An example of a typical Viking longhouse

Probably an added bonus for Vikings is training Berzerkers and units from the ships. This will make them lethal to raid with.


Another bonus feature is treating your ships as storage buildingsas well, so when raiding you can gather resources at an any given location you in without having to be attached to the land...

Viking sea raiders lived totally off their ships. So it makes sense, is historically accurate and adds realism.

Edited January 4, 2014 by Romulous

[greycat]

I like this theorey best...

"The Úlfhéðnar (singular Úlfheðinn), another term associated with berserkers, mentioned in the Vatnsdœla saga, Haraldskvæði and the Völsunga saga, were said to wear the pelt of a wolf when they entered battle. Úlfhéðnar are sometimes described as Odin's special warriors: "[Odin’s] men went without their mailcoats and were mad as hounds or wolves, bit their shields...they slew men, but neither fire nor iron had effect upon them. This is called 'going berserk.^[2]'" In addition, the helm-plate press from Torslunda depicts (below) a scene of Odin with a berserker—"a wolf skinned warrior with the dancer in the bird-horned helm, which is generally interpreted as showing a scene indicative of a relationship between berserkgang... and the god Odin^[3]"—with a wolf pelt and a spear as distinguishing features."

"Most historians believe that berserkers worked themselves into a rage before battle, but some think that they might have consumed drugged foods."

I think the later one is more likely since they made it ilegal to berzerk...In 1015, Jarl Eiríkr Hákonarson of Norway outlawed berserkers. How would they outlaw those who work themselves into a rage before battle?

Edited January 4, 2014 by greycat

[greenknight32]

I read somewhere that the berserker tradition was supposed to have originated with one great warrior who was overcome with a great battle madness when he went into combat, said to make him the equal of 100 ordinary warriors - really bad-tempered dude. I imagine that most men needed drugs to achieve that level of frenzy.

I note the one in the engraving has both a spear and a sword.

[Rodmar]

1°) I guess this war trance state is not far away from that depicted in the Irish Epic (also see the Celtic naked fanatic).

From the material already shared here :

2°) Norsemen were not nomads! (Is this mod to play naval raids only or to play warfare around the Baltic Sea too?

3°) A "viking" town was like any other town at this latitude, in a agro-herder culture, but with maybe less stone and more wood. There were also royal forts in Danemark, garrisoned with professional royal soldiers.

[niektb]

A typical Viking warrior was actually called a "Berzerker"

Berzerkers used any and every weapon available and often had a standard typical uniform with colours and helmets mildly being an exception.

This is the most common and standard berzerker helmet which is distinctive to the Vikings and Norse

Other varieties include:

A Viking king unit (once regicide is implemented) would be a Jarl unit.

If you going to be modding Vikings don't forget the infamous longboats... The perfect name for these ships will be "The Rova"

I would tend to make the Vikings more nomadic in the sense they don't have CC or many types of buildings, but port/docs and things like that where you can train all of their units.

Vikings don't build castles or forts, they build "longhouses"

They do build wooden walls.

An example of a typical Viking longhouse

Probably an added bonus for Vikings is training Berzerkers and units from the ships. This will make them lethal to raid with.

Another bonus feature is treating your ships as storage buildingsas well, so when raiding you can gather resources at an any given location you in without having to be attached to the land...

Viking sea raiders lived totally off their ships. So it makes sense, is historically accurate and adds realism.

According to these sites, the longhouses didn't serve as forts / castles but as living houses:

http://www.danishnet.com/info.php/vikings/longhouse-148.html

http://www.hurstwic.org/history/articles/daily_living/text/longhouse.htm

That horned viking helmet is pure fiction.

I personally like the Berserkers wearing a hide as armor and wielding a strong two-handed weapon most. (A bit like Rome: Total War)

Of course do we include the longboat. It is already going to be implemented as a mobile dropsite. I fear that the longboat will become to powerful, If we'll make it a training entity as well.

Just spamming some ideas:

To make it a less settled faction we could start with only one or two longhouses (perhaps a dropsite as well), in which you can create female citizens and one type of a citizen-soldier. By building a chief's house you can get a stronger building which serves as CC, (but is only build-able in the 2nd phase?) This makes the Vikings vulnerable in the early game, but once survived that part, Vikings will become the ultimate raiding&trading faction with longboats used as mobile dropsites, trading bonuses and the soldiers being swift and have some additional damage vs. buildings.

Edited January 6, 2014 by niektb