New Alert feature ("town bell") : How many levels ?

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 for Females, are cheap is true but they are my economy base and their food farm bonus.

2 level for garrison soldiers in tower to distract enemies, they attack tower, outpost.

For me the females can be garrison in nearest CC, temples or turrets. But citizen soldiers I need them in defense towers and turrets.

And if garrison first the females it's possibly the player have boost of food that was gathered by females before to garrison in CC that is why is important garrison females in CC.

I late game the AI is not a problem for my defenses or for a rush.

Syria, Black Forest, are examples of difficult maps, and all richest maps.

I take some screenshot today how I plan my cities. I posted that coming soon.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Personally, I'd rather have two switches : one for garrisoning/ungarrisoning female citizen, one for garrisoning/ungarrisoning citizen-soldiers. If you have enough room you just press the two buttons. If you don't have enough room for all of them, you press the first one if you consider your female citizen more precious than your citizen-soldiers, the second one if you consider your citizen-soldiers more precious than your female citizen (it could be a strategical move to have your garrisoned archers firing from the buildings while the enemies are busy killing female citizen).

This option would have the advantage to let the player decide at which moment he want to garrison each type of unit when there's not enough room for all (like waiting for 50% of the units of one type to be garrisoned before garrisoning the units of the other type, this kind of stuff).

But that's just my opinion.

you use the farms with citizen soldiers? Edited November 13, 2013 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

 

 

I'd be more in favor of a "every unit garrison to the closest garrisonable building" rule. Then choosing to make female citizen work closer to temples (or build temples closer to where mostly female citizen are working) and make citizen-soldiers work closer to civ centers, towers and fortresses (or build towers and fortresses closer to where mostly citizen-soldiers are working) would be a part of your city management.

When you click on the *alert* button, usually it's because you want your units to be protected as quickly as possible. That's why it's called an alert and that's why we make a button to automate the task. If you really want to garrison specific units in specific buildings, you should do it manually.

you must think when the AI Attack, the Ai don't sit to wait for that, even me planned how protect females, but I use females for gathered wood and food and sometimes gold and stone, why? I need citizen soldiers building defenses.

[serveurix]

you use the farms with citizen soldiers?

At the beginning, yes, while I have not walls I put my ranged infantry + a few females on farms, where they will not move away. When my enemy comes, I select them, make them drop their resources in the city centre and garrison them in it. The other workers are usually scattered away, so I have no time to garrison them in the cc before the enemy reaches it. That's why I prefer having melee infantry working on trees and far mines.

you must think when the AI Attack, the Ai don't sit to wait for that, even me planned how protect females, but I use females for gathered wood and food and sometimes gold and stone, why? I need citizen soldiers building defenses.

I see your point and Nolanjoker's, but this doesn't answer my questions about the priorities on the buildings when both female citizen and citizen soldiers are competing for it. But more importantly, it doesn't answer my question about the global efficiency of such a system when some units have to travel more than they should do to reach a garrisonable building.

I understand that it's disappointing when you see your soldiers garrisoning in a temple and your female citizen garrisoning in civic centres and towers, because you feel like you lose some strike power. But isn't it also what happens when the enemy attacks a desert edge of your city, and your units garrison at the other edge ? Should we also ask the soldiers to garrison in the military buildings that are closer to the enemy ?

I stay on my position : the primary purpose of the alert should be to protect vulnerable units as quickly as possible, and those units should go to the next non-full garrisonable building. They should not trade some protection time against building's firepower, which is a bonus. Exploiting building's extra firepower is a strategic hack, which is good, and should be encouraged, but should not be automatic.

[Lion.Kanzen]

At the beginning, yes, while I have not walls I put my ranged infantry + a few females on farms, where they will not move away. When my enemy comes, I select them, make them drop their resources in the city centre and garrison them in it. The other workers are usually scattered away, so I have no time to garrison them in the cc before the enemy reaches it. That's why I prefer having melee infantry working on trees and far mines.

I see your point and Nolanjoker's, but this doesn't answer my questions about the priorities on the buildings when both female citizen and citizen soldiers are competing for it. But more importantly, it doesn't answer my question about the global efficiency of such a system when some units have to travel more than they should do to reach a garrisonable building.

I understand that it's disappointing when you see your soldiers garrisoning in a temple and your female citizen garrisoning in civic centres and towers, because you feel like you lose some strike power. But isn't it also what happens when the enemy attacks a desert edge of your city, and your units garrison at the other edge ? Should we also ask the soldiers to garrison in the military buildings that are closer to the enemy ?

I stay on my position : the primary purpose of the alert should be to protect vulnerable units as quickly as possible, and those units should go to the next non-full garrisonable building. They should not trade some protection time against building's firepower, which is a bonus. Exploiting building's extra firepower is a strategic hack, which is good, and should be encouraged, but should not be automatic.

IMHO female can be garrison first, like a evacuation then all infantry stop to work and search the defense towers, turrets and outposts.

- we agree about that protect the vulnerable units.

-The enemy in the first rush, the AI attack near CC that why I build towers near resources and CC, build houses and outpost to protect CC. And if they are in other edge of my city is simple I find the units in towers and set my rally point in the tower. Or tower where the enemy is near.

-Ok but the enemy attack civics centre in first attack, in second attack other structures outside the core city.

-Ok then the soldiers can't be garrison by this command, like AoK.

-If are closer to the enemy yes. You don't want to see your Pezhetaroi vs a enemy Hastati? And if are outnumbering is even worse.

And this can be work with a radius like AOK, even in Aok this is more difficult, that game don't have Territory Boders.

That is a Example of what happens.

see the Map, is Corinthian Isthmus, see enemy, they attack from my "rear", didn't expect that at all.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

Then happens this XD. see my stockpile. see population indicator

and not was a big lost but don't was a big rush.

[serveurix]

IMHO female can be garrison first, like a evacuation then all infantry stop to work and search the defense towers, turrets and outposts.

You mean waiting for the females to be all garrisoned before garrisoning the soldiers ? No ! It would mean that the time the garrisoning order is given to the soldiers is dependent on the time the last female citizen reaches it's building.

If you mean that the garrison order for soldiers should follow the one for females, see my comment about the two switches. It's (probably) technically more simple and it gives more flexibility to the player. He who can do more, can do less, right ?

- we agree about that protect the vulnerable units.

-The enemy in the first rush, the AI attack near CC that why I build towers near resources and CC, build houses and outpost to protect CC. And if they are in other edge of my city is simple I find the units in towers and set my rally point in the tower. Or tower where the enemy is near.

I'm not sure about what you mean there, and what would be the link with garrisoning priorities.

That is a Example of what happens.

see the Map, is Corinthian Isthmus, see enemy, they attack from my "rear", didn't expect that at all.

Ok, it's clearer with a picture.

So you would like your soldiers working on this rock mine to prioritize outposts and cc for garrison instead of going in the barracks. Well, I'm afraid your proposal won't help to avoid this kind of situation.

in this situation the enemy is *already* in your city. So no matter what your implementation of garrisoning is, you will always end up with such situations : with the way to the closer building being obstructed by enemies and some longer ways to further buildings that are free from enemies.

The alarm functionality won't help you much if you use it once your enemies are already in your city. There's always a chance some units find enemies on their way to the building they want to garrison in, no matter if it's just the closest or the closest of a specific category. The alarm is meant to be sounded when you see your enemies coming, not when you're attacked. That's why cities had watchmen.

I suggest you use your outposts to increase your line of sight, so you can see enemies coming earlier. A few seconds more to prepare yourself for an attack are really worth it.

You should also develop your economy faster. Here are some tips :

- In the first phase, don't spoil your workforce on metal and stone. Almost all your workers should rush for food and wood.

- Build dropsites. They will make you gather faster and allow you to develop economical technologies.

- Build the dropsites right next to the resources. The time of the travel resource-dropsite has a big impact on your economy. For forests, try to find most profitable location, and build new dropsites regularly.

- Develop techs that will make you gather faster in priority.

But on the case you're showing to me, I suppose that garrisoning your stone miners in your cc manually is the best you can do.

[Lion.Kanzen]

For me is not very important if units garridos in towers but if a little help. The image is objetive, but no was a big rush, in few moments that attack was controlled, I show my style to defend my cities.

Is good suggestion that about outpost to spotted enemy, in other RTS enemy attack the first buildings and units that are first in their LOS at marching.

I know about stone and metal, but there are in Second phase. When I research the second phase, the first I do is stone, I'll other map that where you're placed near of your enemy base.

And early stage from my start to second phase, show images because is more easy understand the argument show my style, you can show yours.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

An alternative for the alarm directed for citizen soldiers is to have those which are gathering resources to drop them off at, ideally, the closest drop site and ready themselves for combat in the most practical manner. This could be one of two things: they could return to the drop site using the attack-move command so as to not ignore everything in their path, or they could merely standby waiting for further orders. Either would be a practical option. Builders, on the other hand, should not cease construction as that would probably cause more annoyance to the player than what it is worth.

[Lion.Kanzen]

this other perspective, when plays is not enough good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zpE5LJYO_k

This is one ahrdest map in game. if you play against Aegis is a Survive game. Deccan Plateau

Edited November 13, 2013 by Lion.Kanzen

[Lion.Kanzen]

An alternative for the alarm directed for citizen soldiers is to have those which are gathering resources to drop them off at, ideally, the closest drop site and ready themselves for combat in the most practical manner. This could be one of two things: they could return to the drop site using the attack-move command so as to not ignore everything in their path, or they could merely standby waiting for further orders. Either would be a practical option. Builders, on the other hand, should not cease construction as that would probably cause more annoyance to the player than what it is worth.

Call to the Arms Button?

yeah i think be proposed before for the mechanic of 0.A.D with Citizen Soldiers.

[SDM]

SDM : For one level, which units should it put under alert ? All or female or workers ?

At the moment, I would say all. Manually canceling units from garrisoning should be easier than manually adding units to a garrison, and I don't trust simple heuristics to micromanage my game for me, anyway.

On a different tangent, I think it's also more mod-friendly if it's not hard-coded to distinguish female workers from other workers (soft-coding is fine provided the modders can easily change it). For example, mods with only one type of workers or mods where female workers are more proficient in combat.

[SirArian]

You whant to do it for single entities? That are at least 3 clicks (focus view on that entity, select it, press the "alarm" button).

IMO the "alarm" should be as fast to reach as possible and should not work for only one entity but globally.

So for me the minimap area would be the favorite place for an "alarm" icon.

Sorry that I didn't follow the "town bell" discussion thoroughly.

As I understand it, rather than it being for a single entity it is tethered to a building, and every unit within the range of the building is garrisoned.

Will the "Bell Tower" be garrison-able?

[Itms]

Hello everyone !

I just posted a new version of the patch on the Trac, to correct all the hardcoded stuff.

I decided not to change anything about the number of levels. Currently one can increase the alert level, up to two levels. The first garrisons female citizens, the second all the units.

I did decide this because the ideas of two separate switches / several levels of alert are incompatible. Moreover :

-> The aim of this new version was to generalize the code, and only two buttons can fit in the UI. With N switches with any N, this is impossible to handle. Here only two buttons are needed (ie. increase level of alert and reset), for any number of levels.

-> I was definitely convinced by many of you, who reject automatic micromanagement. The ones who wanted a unique button still can toggle the button to the maximum level to garrison everyone in the closest building.

-> If the programming team wants to change level 1 to "garrison citizen soldiers", it's now up to them, my new code allows it.

Thanks for participating to the topic !

Edited November 21, 2013 by Itms

[LAVS]

Hi Team, a new version of the Town Bell sounds with some variations. If you like this one, I can create several with variations. Look forward for your feedback:

http://goo.gl/Y7u2P5

Please hear the audio asset and share some opinions, so I can get ready the final sounds for this.
Cheers!

Matias

[Lister Of Smeg]

Hi Guys,

Sorry to dig up an old thread, I've tried to have a look to see if its been mentioned / answered anywhere else first, and up until now couldn't see anywhere appropriate other than here.

Love the new update Alpha 23, love the new maps and civilisation... Even if the game is MUCH HARDER now!! lol

However one thing I can't work out since this update, is how the "Raise The Alert" system works now? Under the older Alpha's, you had 1x Bell... and depending how many times you rang it, as to what level of protection you got. And then a 3rd ring of the bell to cancel it...

However under Alpha 23, there seems to be 2x bells. One to start, and one to turn off. And it only seems to work with the ladies  now. When I play the game, I like to start with the bell on (alert) on. So that all new women / warriors that were created, would spawn inside their respected buildings. Now, even after setting this.. They all leave the buildings and wait outside, till their deaths... on many occasions.

Am I doing something wrong? Has this setting changed, and if so, how??  Or is this just the way it is now??

Thanks, Lister

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, Lister Of Smeg said:

Hi Guys,

Sorry to dig up an old thread, I've tried to have a look to see if its been mentioned / answered anywhere else first, and up until now couldn't see anywhere appropriate other than here.

Love the new update Alpha 23, love the new maps and civilisation... Even if the game is MUCH HARDER now!! lol

However one thing I can't work out since this update, is how the "Raise The Alert" system works now? Under the older Alpha's, you had 1x Bell... and depending how many times you rang it, as to what level of protection you got. And then a 3rd ring of the bell to cancel it...

However under Alpha 23, there seems to be 2x bells. One to start, and one to turn off. And it only seems to work with the ladies  now. When I play the game, I like to start with the bell on (alert) on. So that all new women / warriors that were created, would spawn inside their respected buildings. Now, even after setting this.. They all leave the buildings and wait outside, till their deaths... on many occasions.

Am I doing something wrong? Has this setting changed, and if so, how??  Or is this just the way it is now??

Thanks, Lister

set rally point into the building.

[Lister Of Smeg]

1 hour ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

set rally point into the building.

Hi Lion.Kanzen,

Thank you for replying so promptly. Forgive me, as I'm still kinda new to this game. What's a "rally point" ?

Do you mean, when building/spawning your characters... You click on [source] building, then select [destination] building. So when they are deployed, they run straight to that building?

If so, this is what what I meant/was after. When you raised the Alert to max, all characters in that building closest to Civic Center, would stay in THEIR building, until you told them otherwise. This was useful if under attack, you can quickly build players to stay in and protect/guard that building from take-over.

This feature appears to be missing, or altered?? in this latest A23 release...

Thanks, Lister

[aeonios]

15 hours ago, Lister Of Smeg said:

Thank you for replying so promptly. Forgive me, as I'm still kinda new to this game. What's a "rally point" ?

Do you mean, when building/spawning your characters... You click on [source] building, then select [destination] building. So when they are deployed, they run straight to that building?

Yes, but you have to use control+right-click to get them to garrison. Unfortunately town bell does not do anything to citizen soldiers so if you want them to garrison you have to do it manually.

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 minutes ago, aeonios said:

Unfortunately town bell does not do anything to citizen soldiers

What you mean? the second alert is for that.

[aeonios]

31 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

What you mean? the second alert is for that.

I just tested this and it does nothing. No matter how many times you hit the bell the citizen soldiers just stand there. I tried control clicking or right-clicking the bell too, no difference.

[Stan`]

@temple

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D681

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D937

[Loki1950]

Stan=Trac index

Enjoy the Choice

[Lister Of Smeg]

8 hours ago, stanislas69 said:

@temple

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D681

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D937

Hi @Stanislas69,

Thanks for quoting those links... I can certainly see the efforts and vast work that goes into such features within the game. And the commits and changes that are made, on what seems like such a small and tiny aspect of the game.... However, there is way to much info in there for me, and not sure what I am following...  Obviously there are changes.

1) Could the above 2x tracks / changes be explained in layman's terms please.

2) Are the changes, permanent, or can/will they change back. ie: Just being tested to see how people feel?

3) Personally, I felt the way the "Raise The Alert" feature worked much better in A22 and previous releases. (although I've only been playing since last 2 or 3 builds).

4) Now this game supports mods, could this be a patch / mod, that could be installed (back to how it was) on a user basis?

Thanks for an amazing free game... lots of enjoyment from it !!!

Play it frequently at home.... and AT WORK !!!  lol

Thanks, Lister

[temple]

6 hours ago, Lister Of Smeg said:

1) Could the above 2x tracks / changes be explained in layman's terms please.

2) Are the changes, permanent, or can/will they change back. ie: Just being tested to see how people feel?

3) Personally, I felt the way the "Raise The Alert" feature worked much better in A22 and previous releases. (although I've only been playing since last 2 or 3 builds).

4) Now this game supports mods, could this be a patch / mod, that could be installed (back to how it was) on a user basis?

Now "raise alert" tells nearby women to garrison and "end alert" tells nearby women to ungarrison and return to work. (There's also a bell at the market that tells all trade carts to garrison or ungarrison.) There were bugs with the town bell in A22 and it seemed like the best way of fixing them for the moment was to simplify the behavior. But we'll see what people think. There's certainly ways it can be improved for A24.

I'm pretty sure a mod could change the behavior back to what it was in A22.