===[TASK]=== WONDER: Persians: Apadana of Darius

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

The problem with the 100 column hall is that you can't see the columns, so their impressiveness is completely lost. You're  not gonna see the internal arrangement of the structure so who cares if one structure has 4 internal columns or 100.

The palace gate thing already in the game should just be removed. It was added to the Persians because the Greeks got the Royal Stoa. DE already removes both structures. 

The Gate if All Nations has a unique quality to it that it's not just another palace or temple like all the other wonders or potential wonders in the game. It was built specifically to create awe and wonder to all those entering the capital. 

Edited May 31, 2019 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Nescio]

How about the adapana of Darius then, the central structure of the terrace? 6×6 columns inside, and on the east, north, and west side open galleries with 6×2 columns each, the gallery walls containing reliefs of all the subject peoples of the Persian empire bringing tribute.

[EDIT] The Behistun inscription and the tomb of Darius are also magnificent on the outside, but having a vertical rock wand as a structure coming out of the ground would be weird.

Edited May 31, 2019 by Nescio

[Lion.Kanzen]

 

http://www.persepolis3d.com/control_structures/apadana.htm

 

edit, I forgot this.

Persepolis columns 

 

 

 

Throne audience before the Apadana.

 

other structure is the Gate of army.

 

Plaza Army.

 

Throne Hall Portico.

 

Edited May 31, 2019 by Lion.Kanzen

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I wouldn't mind the Palace of Darius, but what to do with the Apadana structure?

[MrLux]

So, do we need to do the gate of all Nations with the stairs or the some other structure ?

I took a look at the blend file of the gate, texturing is indeed all that it needs. I guess a lot of prop points could be added. The block shape could be broken with some outside trees, columns, maybe one shop or two as props. To not have that cube like thing standing on the map.

[Stan`]

For texturing one needs to use the pers_struct.dds file. And indeed it needs more props including lamassu

As for its usage it's supposed to replace the ziggurat. Feel free to take it on.

[Nescio]

10 hours ago, MrLux said:

So, do we need to do the gate of all Nations with the stairs or the some other structure ?

I took a look at the blend file of the gate, texturing is indeed all that it needs. I guess a lot of prop points could be added. The block shape could be broken with some outside trees, columns, maybe one shop or two as props. To not have that cube like thing standing on the map.

The Gate of All Nations, while of itself quite large (see https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/17552-task-wonder-persians-gate-of-all-nations/?tab=comments#comment-273423), was actually one of the smaller and unimportant buildings on the Persepolis terrace (it's the yellow one in https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/17552-task-wonder-persians-gate-of-all-nations/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-376429). And as you've pointed out, it's basically a square block which looks quite boring on the outside.

In my opinion the Persian wonder ought to be apadana (audience hall) of Darius I the Great at Persepolis (red). This was not only the largest (and central) building of the palace terrace, but also by far the most important: this was where once a year representatives from all satrapies and peoples living in the Persian empire came to pay tribute to the Achaemenid king of kings. Moreover, it also looks impressive on the outside, having large porticos, stairs, and entrances on multiple sides.

Suitable alternatives are the apadana of Darius at Susa or the older ‘Palace S’ of Cyrus II the Great at Pasargadae, both of which served the same function (the Achaemenid empire had multiple capitals).

On 6/1/2019 at 1:46 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I wouldn't mind the Palace of Darius, but what to do with the Apadana structure?

0 A.D. has the following special Persian structures:

• pers_apadana.xml / audience hall of Darius (red on map)
• pers_hall.xml / Gate of All Nations (yellow on map)
• pers_ishtar_gate.xml / Ishtar Gate of Babylon (predates the Achaemenids)
• pers_tacara.xml / palace of Darius (green on map)
• pers_wonder.xml / a combination of the (legendary) Hanging Gardens of Babylon and the (real) E.temen.an.ki, the ziggurat of Marduk in the centre of Babylon (also predates the Achaemenids)

Unfortunately, despite the names, none of them really resembles the real things. Ideally all of them ought to be deprecated and replaced with more accurate actors, but that's a lot of work for little benefit.

(As I've requested elsewhere (https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/20820-macedonian-wonder/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-393823), I'd also like to see the tomb of Cyrus, a much smaller and simpler structure, but still standing today.)

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

The Gate of All Nations was slated to also include the monumental ramp and other stuff. As designed it was quite interesting:

[MrLux]

Hey there,

I want to say to thanks to Enrique. Original model and texturing draft was his (for what I've understood). I cleaned it, organised, optimised and have changed texturing part of the texturing choices.  To break form I chose to play with the walls and tower elevation, critiques are welcome.

I have used extensively the prop system. from the 'technical' screenshoots you can see that the wonder is made out of the inner core building and his floor. Then 4 props for the 4 towers, 3 for the outer wall, 3 for the inner, and one prop for the small frontal wall and the one for the stair. The columns in the inner yard are 8 props, so we can maybe change to the second type of column (dubbed 'heavy' in the blend file).On the outside as a test, there are 12 props, six by the Est and Ouest side, to change the outside decorum. I've put for now a bench some trees and bush. I love the prop system and the fact that with variants buildings can build/decorated themselves differently each time.

I've choose to insert more the specular tintable texture to allow better visualisation of the player team. you can see in the screenshoot how cute it is. Same template that the gardens. Critique welcome.

for the fine people that will see the hellenic vases in the rooftop of the inner building, you are not delusional. Those are placeholders for the initial in-model props I found in the file. I will make a batch of eyecandy props based on the persian texture (vases, rugs, etc) to embellish it in the afternoon. but with the prop system again, it will be easy to switch it.

Lastly I gathered a lot of question in the process. I think I will compile them in a separate threat and also update tutorial and technical doc for artist; because boy did I found some interesting things.

As a note, the material used is the spec normal player, because I still don't get how to get the ao working.

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Files

Spoiler

 

Blend: gate all nations.rar

folder: public.rar

 

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Composition scene for a idea of style and scale

Spoiler

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Screenshots 'technical' - 4 views

Spoiler

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Screenshots 'technical' - props/parts

Spoiler

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Colors !

Spoiler

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by MrLux

[Stan`]

Can you show me the ingame polycount and drawcalls statistics ? 

In atlas open up the actor viewer view and enable the option

Good work. We have to be careful with the props 

[MrLux]

Yep sure. 57 draw calls and 33492 model triangles.

Careful how ? is it better to have a prop with various models than various prop points ?

Spoiler

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

 

Hmm, with the towers sticking up like you have it, it looks more like a fortress than @Enriques version. He probably used the towers on his to invoke architectural elements from elsewhere rather than to insinuate defensiveness. Also the texturing on the ramp looks a lot better on his (the red player color parts). 

[MrLux]

@m7600 I thought it was high but I crosschecked with the other wonders. The selenid, the actual persian wonder are higher, but other ones are indeed low, 20k for the whole actor. Mostly it's triangles on the walls that cramp the count. each is a model of 10 tri and there must be 50-100. Frankly I don't know if the technical specs for the art are about individual mesh or the whole constructed entity, so counting all the props.

@wowgetoffyourcellphone I was not satisfied by the silhouette of the block version, but it does look more defensive and fortress-like with the high towers. 

For the front stairs texturing, it's the same one from the civ center. It wouldn't be hard to swap the prop, but I think it would look too similar to the civ center.

 

 

[Stan`]

1 hour ago, MrLux said:

it better to have a prop with various models than various prop points ?

Yes and when not needed it's better to have no props. Each prop add drawcalls. And each drawcall means the mesh is resent for rendering. So that's 57x33k tris

[MrLux]

Hey hey hey

 

So done some tweaks, cleaned the model gain and merge what was merge-able. I wanted to add some props to add detail on the roofs, but I don't really feel like that vases and rugs on a palace roofs is silly. Someone has ideas ? I was thinking about adding market stands inside the yard, would that be strange ?

So there where we are. I'll try the stairs alternative version tomorrow.

@Stan` Are the specs enough ?

28 draws for 26k tri. Closer to the other models.

 

[Carltonus]

@MrLux, having been looking at the progress of the wonder once in a while, it looks impressive. Are the trees and shrubs intended to be part of the wonder, or they will be removed when the finished product is ready?

[Nescio]

21 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The Gate of All Nations was slated to also include the monumental ramp and other stuff. As designed it was quite interesting:

Interesting though incorrect: we know it didn't look like that. While the current Hanging Gardens is a fantasy structure too, I don't believe replacing it with this is an improvement. I fear you're wasting your time on this, @MrLux.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 hour ago, Nescio said:

I fear you're wasting your time on this, @MrLux.

lol, who determines what goes in the game? You? 

Edited September 20, 2020 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[Nescio]

18 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

lol, who determines what goes in the game? You? 

No, in the end it's up to the team to decide; I can merely advise.

That said, 0 A.D. generally aims for historical accuracy when possible. Persepolis is relatively well preserved, we know the locations and dimensions of the various buildings of the terrace. @Enrique's design is basically a recombination of various assets in game. It is not a correct representation of the Gate of All Nations. Rather than adding more fantasy stuff, I recommend correcting the structures already in game.

[MrLux]

It's the sad reality that everything an art department does does not necessarily cut to the final release. I'm ok with that. On the other side, that revision was a great way to learn the use of the props and building limitations in general in the pyro engine. So for the next ones I'm confident in making better results.

I also check the tickets still pending and this one is old.

More than happy to focus on more pressing matters. as long as it's not modeling humans, really don't like that.

[Nescio]

A few maps and maquettes of Persepolis from Ali Mousavi Persepolis: Discovery and Afterlife of a World Wonder (Berlin 2012):

Spoiler

[Nescio]

4 hours ago, MrLux said:

It's the sad reality that everything an art department does does not necessarily cut to the final release. I'm ok with that. On the other side, that revision was a great way to learn the use of the props and building limitations in general in the pyro engine. So for the next ones I'm confident in making better results.

I also check the tickets still pending and this one is old.

More than happy to focus on more pressing matters. as long as it's not modeling humans, really don't like that.

The Gate of All Nations (the `hall.xml` in the public mod) would still be nice to have, however, it should be based on fact. To start with:

• The hall inside was about 25 m × 25 m.
• The floor was probably red.
• It had four stone pillars of about 18.5 m tall, supporting two pairs of thick wooden beams, to support the (presumably wooden) roof.
• Along the inner wall was a continuous, low, stone bench, upon which people could sit.
  • In the middle of the northern it was interrupted by what probably supported an elevated throne.
• It had entrances on three sides:
  • The one on the west, towards the stairs, was flanked by two colossal bulls.
  • The one on the south, towards the Apadana, was the widest, and not flanked by sculpture.
  • The one on the east, towards the unfinished gate and the Hundred Columns Hall, was flanked by two colossal lamassus.
• The doorposts were made of stone.
• Each entrance had two-leaved doors, probably wooden and covered with decorative metal sheets.
• The outer walls were about 5 m thick and made of mud brick.

If you think you're up to it, perhaps you could start with modelling the colums, bulls, and lamassus? Here are some photographs:

Spoiler

[EDIT] The pillars at the front of the palace.xml / tacara.xml are fine and can be used, although I have some doubts about the colours. The bulls of the apadana.xml are wrong, as are its gate doors (Islamic geometric pattern).

On 9/4/2013 at 9:01 AM, Lion.Kanzen said:

this can give more idea of size of the Wonder.

Edited September 20, 2020 by Nescio
existing assets

[Sundiata]

Came across these recently, from Pasargadae:

[Nescio]

11 hours ago, Sundiata said:

Came across these recently, from Pasargadae:

A few images from Rémy Boucharlat “Archaeological Approaches and their Future Directions in Pasargadae” in Ali Mozaffari (ed.) World Heritage in Iran: Perspectives on Pasargadae (Farnham 2014) 29–59:

Spoiler

More information and images:

• https://www.livius.org/articles/place/pasargadae/
• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Pasargadae
• https://www.livius.org/articles/place/pasargadae/pasargadae-photos/pasargadae-tomb-of-cyrus/
• https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Tomb_of_Cyrus_the_Great

Made for Cyrus the Great-day:

Pasargadae is c. 43 km upstream from Persepolis:

• Anshan: ancient Elamite capital of the region
• Pasargadae: city (and tomb) of Cyrus II the Great
• Persepolis: palace city started (c. 515 BC) by Darius I the Great and continued by basically all Achaemenids after him
• Naqsh-e Rostam: tomb of Darius I; three others are believed to be those of Xerxes I, Artaxerxes I, Darius II, and an unfinished one possibly for Darius III. Also various Sasanian reliefs added centuries later.
• Istakhr, minor settlement under the Achaemenids, became more important afterwards, first capital of the Sasanians.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

This is very handy.

It seems clear now that the Apadana should be upgraded to the Wonder. The columns are more visible than I thought (had to see the building from an "RTS" angle to make sure). The current Apadana special building could maybe be renamed to Tachara and still used for its current purpose or relegated to an Atlas structure.