Thoughts on the Athenians

[Thalatta]

As for the Spartans, I start with issues that should be fixed, and end with more optional takes. From now on I'll be hiding references to make posts a bit lighter. The next part(s) will be mostly about siege engines and ships.

 

PART I

 

Simple things that should be:

-In the civ description, "fell in 330 BC" should be "fell in 338 BC": a mistake regarding the Battle of Chaeronea.

-Athenian Long Walls should be Makra Teichē (Long Walls): how they were called, and no need to add "Athenian".

-Arsenal of Philon should be Philōnos Skeuothēkē (Arsenal of Philon), and have a different icon: to follow proper nomenclature, and instead of a flipped Arsenal icon with blue background, the actual remarkable building could be shown.

Spoiler

https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/skeuotheke-epigraphical-museum-of-athens-acb146db37e442a6a9d82cbc59acf97d

-Ploion Phortegikon (Merchantmen) should be Histiokopos (Merchantmen), and Ploion Halieutikon (Fishing Boat) maybe be Epaktron (Fishing Boat): the present name comes from someone posting "I don't know what the correct word is, though. Perhaps ploion phortegikon?". His source is fine for the fishing boat, but I came across these terms in a book on ancient ships.

Spoiler

"The generic term for a merchant galley was histiokopos 'sail-oar-er' in Greek, and actuaria in Latin", "epakter 'fisherman' and epaktron 'fishing boat'", from Ships and Seamanship in the Ancient World, by L. Casson.

-Ostracism should be Ostrakismos (Ostracism), and have a different icon: to follow proper nomenclature. The icon looks too much like the fist of Will to Fight… I'd raise its middle finger . No, the icon could be an inscribed ostracon (hence the name), a piece of pottery where the name of the person being voted to be ostracised would be scratched on.

-Athenian Slingers should be Athenian Archers: seems way more appropriate according to records.

Spoiler

"Pericles refers to Athens' four corps: hoplites, cavalry, navy and archers. Athenian archers were paid all year round; they served aboard triremes, but could also fight on land as at Sphacteria", and "the cavalry corps numbered 1200 men and the archer corps 1600", from Athenian Hoplite vs Spartan Hoplite, by M. Dahm.

-The Hypozomata icon should be changed: and show them instead of an anchor.

-The Parthenon should have eight columns on its front: I understand that this decision could have been taken because of space constraints and simplified representations, but it's a bit shocking to those who have a clear enough idea of what it should look like, since it was not common in mainland Doric temples, making that a big part of its uniqueness. The sides should have 17, but that's much less noticeable.

-The dock's roof and column configuration is wrong: as I've already mentioned somewhere.

Spoiler

It should be like this:

-The Merchantman’s eye seems low quality: at least when compared to other ships.

Spoiler

It's the lower right one:

 

Simple things that could be:

-Economic Reforms could be Seisachtheia (Debt Relief), and Economic Fortune could be Euboikos Stathmos (Euboic Standard): names of actual Solonian reforms, instead of boring Catafalque bonus names. Economic Reforms increases Worker gathering speed, and the seisachtheia, "relief of burdens", were a debt relief set of laws. Economic Fortune cheapens economic techs, and the Euboic weight standard made commerce more competitive.

-Commercial Treaty could be Symbola (Bilateral Treaty): for corresponding Greek civs.

Spoiler

"The creation of legal institutions and political agreements that offered security and protection to merchants and their goods should thus be interpreted as measures designed to encourage and facilitate trade. During the fifth century BCE, symbola (permanent bilateral treaty relationships) were created to regulate litigation between nationals of different states", from The Ancient Greek Economy Markets, Households and City-States, edited by Harris, Lewis and Woolmer.

-Delian League civ bonus could be Triērarchia (Trierarchy): this is from before the start of the game (according to some), and lasted way longer. The trierarchy (successor of the previous naucrary system) was a public service obligation on the wealthy for the outfitting, maintenance and operation of warships, allowing for their more efficient financing and manning.

Spoiler

The present bonus gives ships -25% construction time, which would still make sense since "in 378 BC about 50 perfectly seaworthy triremes (half of Athens' fleet) lay idle (anepiklerotoi, 'unallotted') because of lack of trierarchoi", from Ancient Greek Warship, by N. Fields.

-Periclean Defense Strategy could be Strategic Withdrawal, and Scholarship and the Arts could be either Pentecontaetia or Golden Age: these Pericles Hero bonus names are too long, and unspecific. The first explains what the strategy actually was, and the second refers to either the period of Athenian rise, or the more generic "Golden Age" term, also used for this period.

-Peltast Reforms could be Iphicratids, and for all infantry: this Iphicrates Hero bonus gives Infantry Javelineers +15% movement speed, which comes from a misreading of Diodorus Siculus by the Encyclopædia Britannica. Still, something Iphicrates did do is improve boots of troops in general. It's quite confusing to have Iphicratean Reforms, Peltast Reforms and Formation Reforms, when the first two seem to be the same thing (it's not exactly known what the Iphicratean reforms entailed, if they even happened), I'll return to this later. I'm not sure what Formation Reforms refers to, given that 63 stratagems are attributed to him.

Spoiler

The 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica states, regarding peltasts, that he "increased greatly the rapidity of their movements" by "substituting linen corselets for their heavy coats-of-mail, and introducing the use of a kind of light leggings, called after him 'iphicratides' (Diod. Sic. xv. 44)", which is wrong, heavy coats-of-mail were not used at that time, and they are mixing peltasts with hoplites, since Diodorus Siculus actually states that "the infantry who had formerly been called 'hoplites' because of their heavy shield, then had their name changed to 'peltasts' from the light pelta they carried", which might explain the confusion (if bronze armour was meant by coats-of-mail), although it's wrong to state that's the origin of the term "peltast". In any case, "he made soldiers' boots that were easy to untie and light and they continue to this day to be called 'iphicratids' after him", all from Bibliotheca Historica, by Diodorus Siculus.

 

Changes that have been already proposed:

-Conscription at the Stable could be Hippeia (Cavalry Class): already proposed State Weaponry as the Conscription alternative for the Barracks (since "conscription" has modern connotations, and infantry and cavalry weren't "conscripted" in the same way). The cavalry class would involve the wealthiest citizens, linked in turn to cavalry service as an obligation: https://lexarithmos.app/en/lexicon/ippeia.

 

Other changes that could be considered:

-Naval oriented civs could have Lighthouses, for increased FOV and ship speed bonus: these appeared in the Hellenistic period. In addition, common early buildings that are not being considered are Stadions, Hippodromes, and Gymnasions (beyond the Athenians), just to mention them.

-Tragōidia (Tragedy) and Kōmōidia (Comedy) techs for the Theatre: they were invented around the start of the game. The Spartans could have things like Gymnopaídiai (Gymnopaediae) instead, since they "held mostly non-scenic contests and games", like the "Gymnopaidiai".

-Ohi Peri Ton Dionyson Technitai (Artists of Dionysus) tech for the Theatre: late tech (270s BC), association of artists that coordinated performances. They were also present in Ptolemaic Egypt, Macedon and Thebes, among others.

-Demosthenes' Reforms tech: mid-game tech (340 BC) for cheaper ships. A reform of the trierarchy, which fixed the total number of triremes and distributed costs better.

-Markets could have Aleteia/Letourgia mutually exclusive techs: Aleteia could cheapen Traders, while Letourgia could increase returns per trade, since either rich men have either tax exemptions (to increase commerce, but the state doesn’t get as much per trade), or must contribute (causing the opposite). There should be situational case uses.

Spoiler

They existed just before the time of the game, but got standardised during it: https://politeia.unimi.it/en/2023/05/09/syll-3-4-nomima-i-32-decreto-onorifico-con-concessione-di-ateleia-da-cizico-525-500-a-c, https://academic.oup.com/edited-volume/61673/chapter-abstract/549651434?redirectedFrom=fulltext#549651434. More democratic city-states, that is, Athens and sometimes Thebes, could double down Letourgia with Eisphora.

-Oligarchy/Demagogy mutually exclusive techs: the first giving a defense bonus, the second an attack bonus.

Spoiler

"Two parties dominated – one led by Nicias (who favoured defence) and the other by Cleon (who favoured aggression)", from Athenian Hoplite vs Spartan Hoplite, by M. Dahm.

-Hoplomachia (Weapons Training) could improve hoplite experience gained while garrisoned: mid- to late-game tech, since hoplites in Classical Greece didn't train with weapons (only their bodies), not even the Spartans (or at least there's no evidence for it), the idea being that courage alone was enough (most didn't have free time for it anyway). Weapons training picked up only at the end of the Classical period. Of course others like ranged units are not included in this (I don't know if presently they gain experience by hunting, which would make sense).

-Mediterranean Draw could be a preceding tech for Archery Training, for Greeks: mostly for those who want to add techs in their mods, this draw technique became more standard early in the game's timeframe, although it should improve mediocre archers, not make them better than those from civs where archery was culturally relevant. These things seem a bit out of place in the Forge.

Spoiler

See https://koryvantesstudies.org/studies-in-english-language/page209-2, and "during the Hellenistic period, archery was introduced in gymnasia", from Bow and Arrowheads from Ancient Macedonia, by I. Bellas.

-Chomata (Moles) Dock tech: to increase Dock HP.

Spoiler

"Thus, by the time Greece entered the Classical Age, her engineers had gone far in adding man's touches to whatever basic elements nature provided at a given port site. A harbor (limen) now boasted strong moles (chomata) to ensure a quiet and safe anchorage", "for protection, massive defense towers rose at the seaward end of the moles", from Ships and Seamanship in the Ancient World, by L. Casson.

-The Gymnasium could be treated quite differently: I wonder what's the reason for having Schytian Archers coming out of this building, Mercenary Camps should be the way to go for mercenaries: Crete, Thrace and Scythia were never really part of the Athenian "empire". I would then relocate the other military units from here to the Barracks, and move Iphicratean Reforms to the Council Chamber. Gymnasia were all around centers of training and study. The Academia of Plato, Lyceum of Aristotle and Kynosarges of Antisthenes were the greatest in Athens. They would mainly have (inside or around) a palaestra (for pankration, etc) and a dromoi (for running, hoplitodromos, etc), which could be damage and speed techs, respectively. Since I think it would be nice for each civ to have a unique limited preferably non-combat unit, like Han Ministers (or Spartan Ephors and Theban Musicians I proposed), Athens could train Philosophers, to give research or culture bonuses or whatever. It was also associated with medical training since the Aleiptae, who oiled and dusted athletes, also acted as surgeons (if eventually actual healers and priests are separated).

-Epibatēs Athēnaios (Athenian Marine) could be Iphikrateios Hoplitēs (Iphicratean Hoplite): contradictorily enough, Athens didn't rely on "marines" for boarding, but on ramming (AI gets easily confused with these things). The word epibatēs is used in general for anyone on deck, and the deck-soldiers were (mostly) hoplites. Iphicratean hoplites is a modern term for something poorly attested that didn't really caught on in mainland Greece then: in principle hoplites were given longer weapons, lighter armor, and smaller shields, and/or (more probably) peltasts were given long spears and more armour, basically producing proto-pikemen, and possibly just for mercenaries in naval service.

Spoiler

"at sea, warships were for a time equipped with a fighting-deck on which hoplites, serving as marines, could be masse", from Arms and Armour of the Greeks, by A. M. Snodgrass.

"40 picked citizen soldiers on deck (epibatai)", "were now putting ashore the regular hoplite epibatai", "it proves conclusively that the word epibatis means someone carried on deck, here the Persian notables, in the normal crew armed men", "epibatēs, pI. epibatai: as r.t., a fighting man in full armour carried on the deck of an oared warship; or, generally, a passenger carried on deck", from The Athenian Trireme, The History and Reconstruction of an Ancient Greek Warship, by J. S. Morrison, J. F. Coates and N. B. Rankov.

"citizen slave-owners served as epibatai and members of the hyperesia while their slaves served as rowers", from The Political Economy of Classical Athens, A Naval Perspective, by B. O'Halloran.

"Iphicrates created a new troop type that has been called a light hoplite or heavy peltast and might have been a proto-pikeman", "Iphicrates, who created a force of spearmen designed to face hoplites. He lengthened the spear and sword and adopted a new type of small oval shield (the 'peltas summetrous') for his men", "Greek hoplites came across pikemen no later than the early 5th century; doing so in Thrace, where a small number of fighters used the sarissa (pike), perhaps mostly as an anti-cavalry device. The Greek general Iphicrates, no doubt having seen this weapon while campaigning in that region, may have adapted it for phalanx use in the early 4th century. Most likely he did this out of necessity in expanding the line infantry element of a mercenary force he was leading in Egypt. Iphicrates' innovations failed to catch on in Greece; however, they seem to have had more influence in Macedon", from Hoplites at War A Comprehensive Analysis of Heavy Infantry Combat in the Greek World, 750-100 BCE, by P. M. Bardunias and F. E. Ray Jr., in good part based on Diodorus Siculus.

-Iphicratean Reforms could be called Arms Reforms, unlock Iphicratean Hoplites, and other effects: this should be the order, and I think these units were had in mind when creating the "Marine". I renamed it because, as mentioned, there's some redundancy around. Iphicratean Hoplites could be trained in Docks and Triremes, given that some think this applied to mercenaries in naval service, after witnessing Egyptian forces possibly using long spears for naval combat. If possible, Thracian Peltasts could gain experience to have the ability to switch to them (maybe too weird to have a mercenary switching to champion), and right now the Athenians don't have a hoplite mercenary force to also do this. If we are to literally believe Siculus (risky), Athenian hoplites would do.

Spoiler

"The Egyptians furnished two hundred ships. They wore woven helmets and carried hollow shields with broad rims, and spears for sea-warfare, and great battle-axes. Most of them wore cuirasses and carried long swords", from The Histories, by Herodotus.

"he devised many improvements in the tools of war, devoting himself especially to the matter of arms", from Bibliotheca Historica, by Diodorus Siculus.

For a more critical perspective on all this mess, refer to historian Roel Konijnendijk, posting as Iphikrates: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/5xiypn/comment/dfau0pq.

-Epilektos (City Guard) is not characteristically Athenian, while a Fast Ramming Trireme could instead be considered: epilektoi just means "chosen" in armies, and many had them. I know that a ship would be a weird champion unit, and I'll return to this in the corresponding part about ships, although I wish I had better ideas for an Athenian land champion unit, maybe later. The Epilektoi Infantry civ bonus would then be removed, its role taken in part by the Arms Reforms tech.

Spoiler

"logades ('picked'); this term and the word epilektoi ('chosen') are used interchangeably for elite units in ancient Greek armies", from Athenian Hoplite vs Spartan Hoplite, by M. Dahm.

"a few other states maintained smaller bodies of select hoplites (epilektoi) at public expense", from Hoplites at War A Comprehensive Analysis of Heavy Infantry Combat in the Greek World, 750-100 BCE, by P. M Bardunias and F. E. Ray Jr.

 

Other information that could eventually be useful:

-For an Iphicrates javelinmen bonus, "the running Spartans finally gave up and turned around only to have Iphicrates and his crew reverse back into range and take out a few more of them from behind", from Hoplites at War A Comprehensive Analysis of Heavy Infantry Combat in the Greek World, 750-100 BCE, by P. M. Bardunias and F. E. Ray Jr.

-For an Iphicrates ship bonus, "not only did Iphicrates improve his oarsmen's fitness but also made his ships go faster", from The Age of the Galley, by R. Gardiner.

-Siege Tower Artillery tech to increase its firepower, not sure about Athens in particular: "the bottom storey (..) is supposed to have accommodated (...) stone-projectors (...) there would have been space for only three, side by side (...) to concentrate heavy firepower at battlement level, where men and masonry were most vulnerable (...) little point in loading artillery in the upper storeys, where its limited angle of depression was a handicap (...) catapults in the third and fourth storeys could have proved useful at long range".

-Bronze Teeth tech for battering ram to add pierce and maybe cut damage, not sure about Athens in particular: "Bronze head (...) late-5th-century (...) five triangular teeth, was perhaps designed to cut into mud-brick", from Greek and Roman Siege Machinery 399 BC-AD 363, by D. B. Campbell.

-For those who want secondary weapons, Scythian archers could also have axes: they were "armed with a composite bow, a dagger and the sagaris, or battle-axe", from Ancient Greek Warship, by N. Fields.

-Order names for when formations take a bigger role: "Orders for a turn – epistrophe for a 'quarter-turn' or perispasmos for a 'half-turn'", from Athenian Hoplite vs Spartan Hoplite, by M. Dahm.

-To denote rank, maybe I mentioned greaves and cloak, but only the second would be accurate long-term: "Greaves fell out of use before the Peloponnesian War; armour became simpler and the cloak became more common (and was viewed as a symbol of rank in both Athens and Sparta)", from Athenian Hoplite vs Spartan Hoplite, by M. Dahm.

 

For reference, the preceding Thoughts on the Spartans post:

https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/143241-thoughts-on-the-spartans: the comments made for the Spartans on techs from the Civic Centre, House, Dock, Forge, Temple, dropsites and fortifications apply also to the Athenians (in fact, some comments made were indicated not to apply to the Spartans).

[Obelix]

2 hours ago, Thalatta said:

-In the civ description, "fell in 330 BC" should be "fell in 338 BC": a mistake regarding the Battle of Chaeronea.

Yes, this change makes this simplified passage a bit more accurate. But instead of 'fell', 'lost its independency' would fit more.