Unit And Building Names

[Lion.Kanzen]

  On 01/03/2018 at 7:37 AM, george1234 said:

Dont know where to report this on transifex but i ve reviewed the whole greek language manual's translation and fixed most of it. Some parts were terrible as if pulled out of google translate.

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Ok its nice but this topic is more related to original names those shouldn't  be translated. we call them specific name.

[GunChleoc]

Well, for the Greek translation, it would make sense to replace the transliterated Latin-script versions with the original Greek alphabet versions

[Nescio]

  On 04/03/2018 at 7:16 PM, GunChleoc said:

Well, for the Greek translation, it would make sense to replace the transliterated Latin-script versions with the original Greek alphabet versions

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But then we should also write Old Persian names in Old Persian cuneiform and Carthaginian in the Phoenician alphabet. Although it's possible, I'm unconvinced that would be a good idea. (Different writing directions also tend to complicate things.)

[GunChleoc]

  On 04/03/2018 at 7:48 PM, Nescio said:

But then we should also write Old Persian names in Old Persian cuneiform and Carthaginian in the Phoenician alphabet. Although it's possible, I'm unconvinced that would be a good idea. (Different writing directions also tend to complicate things.)

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You didn't read my post carefully:

Well, for the Greek translation ...

We should not change the source strings.

[Akira Kurosawa]

Hello! I also want to report about some mistakes at russian localization. Maybe those people who translate should use Wikipedia pages to confirm right words? For example we have mistake at roman nation. At english it maybe right to use "veles" as singular from velites, but at russian it should be [velit] - Велит.

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Велиты

It is realy great game so I beg translators to consult with encyclopedia or dictionary when you write text especially if you not from countries of your translation. The same mistake also at ukrainian translation. It should be Веліт.

https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Веліти

[Stan`]

 

  On 12/09/2018 at 8:51 AM, Acerronia Polla said:

Hello! I also want to report about some mistakes at russian localization. Maybe those people who translate should use Wikipedia pages to confirm right words? For example we have mistake at roman nation. At english it maybe right to use "veles" as singular from velites, but at russian it should be [velit] - Велит.

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Велиты

It is realy great game so I beg translators to consult with encyclopedia or dictionary when you write text especially if you not from countries of your translation. The same mistake also at ukrainian translation. It should be Веліт.

https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Веліти

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Hey,

You can help them translate and review at transifex.

[GunChleoc]

I expect that the name is transliterated rather than translated, so it's the original Latin represented by Cyrillic letters.

[Akira Kurosawa]

I noticed that some language packs not just translate latin animal names but also trying to [transcript]. I think both methods are huge mistakes. Can you please erase current mistranslation and lock latin names (only latin names) for fauna at all languages at both columns to prevent subsequent wrong transcription?

Edited February 18, 2022 by MontezumaRevenge

[Stan`]

  On 18/02/2022 at 12:58 PM, MontezumaRevenge said:

I noticed that some language packs not just translate latin animal names but also trying to [transcript]. I think both methods are huge mistakes. Can you please erase current mistranslation and lock latin names (only latin names) for fauna at all languages at both columns to prevent subsequent wrong transcription?

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Sadly we have to let translators translate them, for non latin fonts, e.g Chinese, Japanese and Korean.

[Lion.Kanzen]

In any case Western languages must leave them as they find certain things.

[Akira Kurosawa]

  On 18/02/2022 at 2:15 PM, Stan` said:

Sadly we have to let translators translate them, for non latin fonts, e.g Chinese, Japanese and Korean.

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What you mean? For example: we have name Zebra at animal name and we have Equus quagga as latin name at english translation. So, correctly will be if word "Zebra" would be translated, but "Equus quagga" will be constant for every languages.

Incorrect variant:

EN: Zebra / Equus quagga

RU: Зебра / Эквус квагга

GR: Ζέβρα / Eκυυσ κυαγγα

ZH: 斑馬 / 馬 斑驢

 

Correct variant:

EN: Zebra / ⋒ Equus quagga

RU: Зебра / ⋒ Equus quagga

GR: Ζέβρα / ⋒ Equus quagga

ZH: 斑馬 / ⋒ Equus quagga

[Stan`]

  On 18/02/2022 at 4:22 PM, MontezumaRevenge said:

What you mean? For example: we have name Zebra at animal name and we have Equus quagga as latin name at english translation. So, correctly will be if word "Zebra" would be translated, but "Equus quagga" will be constant for every languages.

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That's assuming that Russian speaking people, and people speaking CJK languages can read latin in its original script. It's unfair to them. 

 

[Akira Kurosawa]

  On 18/02/2022 at 4:32 PM, Stan` said:

That's assuming that Russian speaking people, and people speaking CJK languages can read latin in its original script. It's unfair to them. 

 

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Not understand... Russian or CJK players would read both names - russian or CJK name + latin name. All fair.

I don't know any scientific literature where latin names were transcripted... Everywhere were: (local name) + (latin name writted by latin).

Example:

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Бурчеллова_зебра

https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/平原斑馬

[Stan`]

Well they keep requesting us to give us phonetic readings so they can translate it to their language scripts.

 

[Akira Kurosawa]

  On 18/02/2022 at 4:45 PM, Stan` said:

Well they keep requesting us to give us phonetic readings so they can translate it to their language scripts.

 

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But this is incorrect practice... No one scientific encyclopedia was split latin names into phonetic... Because that is the sense of latin name... You can phoneticaly translate Roman units and buildings because every nation at 0 A.D. have their own language but you should not corrupt biological terms. Turn biological latin names into chinese "phonetic" - it's comlete profanation!

Паво кристатус - should be Pavo cristatus. Because player allready know that is a peacok when he read (Павлин).

Edited February 18, 2022 by MontezumaRevenge

[nwtour]

  On 18/02/2022 at 4:59 PM, MontezumaRevenge said:

But this is incorrect practice

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Please provide a link that this is incorrect practice

I found books for doctors and philologists teaching the rules of Latin transliteration (for Russian language)
https://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/ruwiki/1384874
http://graecolatini.bsu.by/htm-different/latin-translit.htm
https://kartaslov.ru/книги/А_И_Штунь_Латинский_язык_для_медиков_конспект_лекций/2

[Akira Kurosawa]

  On 18/02/2022 at 5:04 PM, nwtour said:

Please provide a link that this is incorrect practice

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The biological latin names are not simple "latin words". Even medicine write composition using non changeble latin words. It even follows from the logic of the game, this name falls out of the context of buildings and units, and for all nations it is written in Latin as an animal genus, taxon, and so on. What references can there be if no one translates biological Latin letter by letter? It even looks like a collective farm. Example: royal pelargonium (Regal Pelargonium). It never occurs to anyone in delirium, except for illiterate aunts, to write it as "рэгал пеларгониум". There is no need to confuse ancient Latin names with modern biological names in Latin - this is the level of the collective farm "70 years without light." On Academician, most of the words are ancient names, and not taxones or genus. Even the very same "tuberculosis - туберкулёз" no one writes as "туберкулёсис", besides, the Russian name is already present. Why even distorted to enter? All I suggest is to remove all these "кристатусы" and "локсодонты африканусы", leaving the Latin name at the top and the Russian normal name at the bottom. You don't want to understand me at all. No one takes words like Loxodonta Africanus from an elephant in square brackets of transcription, but translates with such a meaning as if it were Russian in itself and almost dictionary word. If you leave it in the game, it will be a complete "collective farm".

 

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Даже исходя из логики игры, эти названия выпадают из контекста зданий и юнитов, и для всех наций написаны на латыни как род животного, таксон и так далее. Какие тут могут быть ссылки, если никто не переводит биологическую латынь побуквенно? Это выглядит даже по-колхозному. Пример: пеларгония королевская (Regal Pelargonium). Никому в бреду не приходит в голову, кроме безграмотных тёток, написать это как "рэгал пеларгониум". Не надо смешивать античные латинские названия с современными биологическими названиями на латыни - это уровень колхоза "70 лет без света". На Академике большая часть слов - это античные имена и названия, а не таксоны и рода. Даже тот самый "tuberculosis — туберкулёз" никто не пишет как "туберкулёсис", к тому же русское название уже в наличие присутствует. Зачем ещё коверканое вписывать? Всё, что я предлагаю - удалить все эти "кристатусы" и "локсодонта африканусы", оставив латинское название вверху и русское нормальное название внизу. Вы меня совершенно не хотите понимать. Слова как Локсодонта Африканус у слона никто не берёт в квадратные скобки транскрипции, а переводит с таким смыслом, будто оно вовсе само по себе русское и чуть ли не словарное. Если так и оставить в игре - это будет колхоз чистой воды.

 

Edited February 18, 2022 by MontezumaRevenge

[nwtour]

@MontezumaRevenge I agree that there is confusion with translations and transliteration in the game. Greek names are written in Latin (although there is Cyrillic) and then they are translated again into Russian Cyrillic

Every language has an official set of rules. Prooflinks are needed in order to indicate the rule by which we are guided directly in the code.

I looked at the big biological Soviet encyclopedia of 1986 - the words in Latin are really not transliterated. But for each plant there is a Russian-language name

I think it is up to the translator of each particular language to decide whether to copy the name of the Latin, transliterate or translate into the local scientific name.
 

[Akira Kurosawa]

  On 18/02/2022 at 5:46 PM, nwtour said:

But for each plant there is a Russian-language name

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Russian language names looks very similar to latin but they have typical russian endings such ксантория. They not save latin endings as phoneme. "Я" - it's not "u" like at word "umbrella" it's "ya". And latin ending "-ae" for plural is not save in mirror-transcryption, changing it into deep "ee" like at "wheel" but more deeper - "ы". Usually russian language names are not 100% mirror of latin word in russian letters. 95%, 99% but not 100% of phonetical, so even plant-names should not be considered as blind latin "tracing paper" transcryption. Translators of each particular language can decide whether to copy the name of the Latin, transliterate or translate into the local scientific name, but it still profanation practice, because so-called "local scientific name" already have it's own place under latin name.

Edited February 18, 2022 by MontezumaRevenge

[nwtour]

@MontezumaRevenge
The game has the concept of "SpecificName" - for plants this is the Latin language, for Greek buildings this is the Greek name in the English alphabet, for Egyptian buildings these are names with ancient Egyptian symbols

 

The game does not separate them. The translator decides how to write correctly in the current language. You propose to completely disable the translation of "SpecificName" - IMHO this is a bad option. You can join the ranks of translators and replace incorrect transliterations in transiflex.

[Akira Kurosawa]

  On 18/02/2022 at 6:12 PM, nwtour said:

@MontezumaRevenge
The game has the concept of "SpecificName" - for plants this is the Latin language, for Greek buildings this is the Greek name in the English alphabet, for Egyptian buildings these are names with ancient Egyptian symbols

 

The game does not separate them. The translator decides how to write correctly in the current language. You propose to completely disable the translation of "SpecificName" - IMHO this is a bad option. You can join the ranks of translators and replace incorrect transliterations in transiflex.

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Manually? That is useless, because I noticed, that my manual corrections were "rollback" into dumb-machine translation at every game text update. I think, if you want to make right multylingual game, you should order one and only one translator such it did Wesnoth devs. Translator who will follow some one style and standard. That is all I can say. But why you can't separate modern latin animal names at it's own group - that is really mystery... May be devs really should follow Age of Empires 2 way and do not play with ancient dead languages without any professors at team or consultation???

Edited February 18, 2022 by MontezumaRevenge

[nwtour]

  On 18/02/2022 at 6:19 PM, MontezumaRevenge said:

Translator who will follow some one style and standard

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There is no standard. In different cultures, geographical, historical and biological terms may differ.

Localization is the process of bringing to the local culture, and not about unification

For example: If in the game the Greek center is called "ἀγορά" - those who speak only English will be unhappy. They don’t need such a standard if it’s impossible to read
 

  On 18/02/2022 at 6:19 PM, MontezumaRevenge said:

Manually? That is useless, because I noticed, that my manual corrections were "rollback" into ding-dong-machine translation at every game text update

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When line changed, it returns to its original form (for plants, this is Latin)

Machine translation is added by certain people - their nicknames are on the right in the interface.
 

  On 18/02/2022 at 6:00 PM, MontezumaRevenge said:

but it still profanation practice, because so-called "local scientific name" already have it's own place under latin name.

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I have a Russian encyclopeia open - there is 50 percent Latin transliteration.

The second half is words taken from Greek or own Russian words. I suspect that in cultures remote from ancient Rome - Chinese or Indian, the vast majority has its own scientific name

Edited February 18, 2022 by nwtour

[Akira Kurosawa]

  On 18/02/2022 at 6:45 PM, nwtour said:

There is no standard. In different cultures, geographical, historical and biological terms may differ.

Localization is the process of bringing to the local culture, and not about unification

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U kidding me?

  On 18/02/2022 at 6:45 PM, nwtour said:

For example: If in the game the Greek center is called "ἀγορά" - those who speak only English will be unhappy. They don’t need such a standard if it’s impossible to read

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I don't meant it at all...

  On 18/02/2022 at 6:45 PM, nwtour said:

I have a Russian encyclopeia open - there is 50 percent Latin transliteration.

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I live at Russia and it's to hard to explain this huge difference between local bio-name and russificated latin names of bio-groups. But no one in Russia call peakok as "PAVO CRISTATUS" in common life LOL!

  On 18/02/2022 at 6:45 PM, nwtour said:

Machine translation is added by certain people - their nicknames are on the right in the interface.

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Ok! Fine! If you give me ability to unblock blocked translations I would review and fix at least at Russian and Ukrainian languages. Because there also small mistakes at Edes Iovis translated at Rus as Lovis, egyptian words etc. My Transifex account name is Apheidas.

Edited February 19, 2022 by MontezumaRevenge

[nwtour]

  On 19/02/2022 at 8:24 AM, MontezumaRevenge said:

I live at Russia and it's to hard to explain this huge difference between local bio-name and russificated latin names of bio-groups. But no one in Russia call peakok as "PAVO CRISTATUS" in common life LOL!

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Смотрите. В игре используется два поля GenericName и SpecificName. Название "Павлин" - используемое в обычной жизни это из блока GenericName. Насколько я понял тут проблем нет. По этому мы обсуждаем только поле SpecificName. Туда вставляется научное название. Официальное научное название в России:
"Павлин обыкновенный (Pavo cristatus)"
Как по мне и вариант "Павлин обыкновенный" и Pavo cristatus - правильные для этого поля. То есть переводчик решает какой стилистики придерживаться.
Мне лично первый вариант больше нравится ибо игра становится более доступна для людей которые впринципе английские буквы не знают. Поверьте такие есть. Но если желаете Латынь - это конечно тоже правильный вариант

 

  On 19/02/2022 at 8:24 AM, MontezumaRevenge said:

Ok! Fine! If you give me ability to unblock blocked translations I would review and fix at least at Russian and Ukrainian languages

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In the Russian version, I do not see any problems - only the main elements of the interface are reviewed there. Flora and fauna can be easily changed

@Stan` Can you help with the Ukrainian version

[Akira Kurosawa]

  On 19/02/2022 at 1:53 PM, nwtour said:

Как по мне и вариант "Павлин обыкновенный" и Pavo cristatus - правильные для этого поля. То есть переводчик решает какой стилистики придерживаться.

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Как по мне, то дважды писать по-русски практически одно и то же - это тавтология. Латинские названия, если я правильно понимаю, призваны познакомить игрока с латинским названием, иначе зачем они тогда вообще нужны? Во вторых:

  On 19/02/2022 at 1:53 PM, nwtour said:

игра становится более доступна для людей которые впринципе английские буквы не знают.

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На сколько я понимаю, всё-таки PEGI для подобных игр составляет 12-13 лет... Это как бы предполагает, что человек владеет школьной программой 6-7-го классов, а значит встречался и с английским, и с биологией... Насчёт китайского языка, то я думаю, что Китай не такая уж и дремучая страна, чтобы транслитерировать латинские буквы фауны на китайский или даже в "палладию". Нонсенс! Мне кажется, что комбинирование латинского названия, которым прекрасно пользуются и в России, и в Китае, вместе с местным обычным названием - более грамотный шаг, нежели коверкать латынь до "фонетического" суржика. А если вам нужно указать, что "этот павлин - обычный", то лучше это сделать в строке GenericName, а не занимать позицию, как мне кажется, для латинского международно понятного названия. Если моя логика права, то латинские названия добавлены как раз для того, чтобы служить универсальным названием, по которому можно ориентироваться, так как латинские названия - международный стандарт, понятный всем биологам и прочим. По той же логике ваша "ксантория" из словаря СССР - это GenericName, а "xanthoria" остаётся на латыни как - SpecificName. Да хоть медицинские препараты возьмите: где бы их не произвели, грамотные фармацевты состав пишут на латыни. Никто не пишет воду как "аква" русскими буквами. Латинское название служит как раз для того, чтобы однозначно определять что перед вами, а русское - понять предмет "в общем". Дело в том, что это даже не вопрос "стиля и предпочтения". Да, мы транскрибируем национальные названия городских центров, горожан и т. д, но юниты "гайи" с их латинскими названиями - это не часть нации Римляне, чтобы их латинские наименования транскрибировать в русский или китайский.

 

Edited February 19, 2022 by MontezumaRevenge