Balance Discussion - Hack and Pierce

[DesertRose]

Been reading through old balance discussion threads (1, 2, 3, 4) but because those threads are up to 8 years old I'll have the audacity to make a new one instead of responding to one of those.

Spoiler

 

On 17/04/2022 at 7:50 PM, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Spears are fine to have both hack and pierce damage, as this speaks to their versatility. However, some more asymmetry between these values might be worth considering.

 

Spearman dealing about 50/50 Hack/Pierce makes them boring and very hard to balance as the individual Hack and Pierce Resistance of the target becomes irrelevant. It doesn't matter if the target has 5 Hack Res and 1 Pierce Res, 4 and 2, 3 and 3, 2 and 4, or 1 and 5, Spearman will deal roughly the same damage against all of them. That makes them hell to balance, as when they deal sufficient damage to one target to be considered good against them they very quickly become good against everything, making them OP, and vice versa.

This thread will be about (Citizen Soldier) units that deal Hack and / or Pierce damage, and how they can be given distinguished roles with just Hack Damage, Pierce Damage, Hack Resistance, Pierce Resistance and a Damage Multiplier against Cavalry.

 

The values presented are not set in stone but to illustrate the core principles.

 

So lets start with the core triangle:

Infantry Spearman:

• 75% Hack, 25% Pierce
• Bonus Damage against Cavalry

Infantry Archer:

• 100% Pierce
• Long Range

Cavalry Swordsman:

• 100% Hack
• High DPS (due to high RoF)
• -1 Hack Resistance (from Cavalry Melee)
• +1 Pierce Resistance (from Cavalry Swordsman)
• Faster than Cavalry Spearman

These three units form the most distinct Rock Paper Scissors triangle. Cavalry Swordsmen's high speed, high damage and high Pierce Resistance makes them decimate Archers. Infantry Spearmen decimate Cavalry Swordmen thanks to mostly their bonus damage, and Infantry Archers weed out most Spearmen before they can reach them.

The next three units still uphold the triangle but in a (sometimes far) less pronounced way:

Infantry Swordsman:

• 100% Hack
• High DPS (due to high RoF)
• +1 Hack Resistance (from Infantry Swordsman)
• Faster than Infantry_Spearman

Infantry Javelineer:

• 25% Hack, 75% Pierce
• Low Range
• High DPS (due to high damage)
• Faster than Infantry Archer

Cavalry Spearman:

• 75% Hack, 25% Pierce
• Small Bonus Damage against Cavalry (1.2-1.5)
• -1 Hack Resistance (from Cavalry Melee)

Compared to Cavalry Swordsmen: Cavalry Spearmen still beat ranged infantry, but lower DPS, speed and Pierce Resistance makes them less effective. They are slightly better against cavalry despite lower DPS thanks to their Bonus Damage. They perform about equally good against Infantry Swordmen thanks to part of their damage bypassing the +1 Hack Resistance of them.

Compared to Infantry Archers: Infantry Javelineers are better against Cavalry due to them partially dealing Hack damage. Their lower range does not make that much of a difference against cavalry as cavalry can close the distance quickly. They are weaker against infantry due to having to be far closer, and having partially Hack damage does not offer them any advantage; in fact, against Infantry Swordsmen it becomes a disadvantage.

Compared to Infantry Spearmen: Infantry Swordmen lose to melee Cavalry due to their better stats, but cavalry's weakness to Hack damage and their own Hack Resistance means they barely win cost-for-cost. They win against Spearmen due to their own higher DPS and Hack Resistance. They are better against ranged units due their higher DPS and speed.

Infantry Pikeman:

• 25% Hack, 75% Pierce
• Long Range, High Damage, but low RoF (DPS slightly below Infantry Spearman)
• Bonus Damage against Cavalry
• Slower than Infantry Spearman

Compared to Infantry Spearmen: 1-vs-1 Infantry Pikemen are the worst melee infantry unit. They become much stronger in numbers as their long range and alpha strike damage allows them to kill some of the approaching melee units before they can fight back, snowballing the fight in their favor.

Not sure about Cavalry Archers and Cavalry Javelineers, so I'll put them in a spoiler:

Spoiler

Cavalry Archer:

• 100% Pierce
• Long Range, less than Infantry Archer
• -1 Pierce Resistance (from Cavalry Ranged)
• About the same speed as Cavalry Spearman

Cavalry Javelineer:

• 25% Hack, 75% Pierce
• Low Range, less than Infantry Javelineer
• -1 Pierce Resistance (from Cavalry Ranged)
• Faster than Cavalry Archer

They are even more effective against melee infantry does to being able to kite them endlessly. However melee cavalry and ranged infantry can zone them out.

 

Edited 18 hours ago by DesertRose

[Deicide4u]

57 minutes ago, DesertRose said:

Infantry Javelineer:

• 25% Hack, 75% Pierce

Why, though?

I think giving melee units pierce damage makes no sense. It's also much easier to balance when you know that melee = hack and ranged = pierce. 

But, people chose to give "trash" (w/o metal cost) melee units high pierce damage, to artificially nerf them against buildings, thus promoting the capture mechanic.

[Emacz]

Classical Warfare AEA give Javs a very small hack dmg

[DesertRose]

6 hours ago, Deicide4u said:

Why, though?

In my suggestion melee cavalry has less Hack Resistance than Pierce Resistance.

Thus Javelineers dealing 25% Hack is a "hidden" 2.8% / 5.1% bonus damage against cavalry.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

53 minutes ago, DesertRose said:

In my suggestion melee cavalry has less Hack Resistance than Pierce Resistance.

Thus Javelineers dealing 25% Hack is a "hidden" 2.8% / 5.1% bonus damage against cavalry.

Add an attack bonus instead (say... "Javelineers 1.05x attack vs. Cavalry, Peltasts 1.15x attack vs. Cavalry") This would prevent any unintended knock on effects of giving your units multiple attack types. DE makes extensive use of attack bonuses for this purpose:

 

(Tooltip)

Spearman

Strong Against: Cavalry (2.0x)

Weak Against: Ranged Units, Swordsmen

 

(Tooltip)

Javelineer

Strong Against: Ranged Cavalry (1.10x), Elephants (1.5x)

Weak Against: Melee Cavalry

 

(Tooltip)

Civilian Citizen

Strong Against: Resources, Chickens (100x)

Weak Against: Everything Else

 

Just kidding about the last one.