Mercenaries

[Adeimantos]

Are mercenaries worth using? I feel like they cost too much metal to be worth it; that needs to be saved for champions. 

[Adeimantos]

I'd like to recommend that in the next release their cost be changed to half that of the equivalent citizen soldier, plus 20 metal. So a mercenary archer would be 25 food, 25 wood, and 20 metal.

[Classic-Burger]

6 minutes ago, Adeimantos said:

I'd like to recommend that in the next release their cost be changed to half that of the equivalent citizen soldier, plus 20 metal. So a mercenary archer would be 25 food, 25 wood, and 20 metal.

Too late for a change in A28.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

The idea behind mercenaries is that they are cheaper in total resources, but you have to pursue a lot of metal to make them. They are also quickly trained and are more effective than their CS counterparts.

So you just have to prioritize metal in your build if you want to use those units.

[Gurken Khan]

27 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

mercenaries ... are more effective than their CS counterparts.

Are they? When I look at the Roman swordsman from the castra (who is advanced rank if I'm not mistaken) and some merc swordsman (also adv. rank) I see the same values for their sword attack and worse for capturing (plus the merc can't gather).

[Adeimantos]

48 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

The idea behind mercenaries is that they are cheaper in total resources, but you have to pursue a lot of metal to make them. They are also quickly trained and are more effective than their CS counterparts.

So you just have to prioritize metal in your build if you want to use those units.

There's only a limited amount of metal on the map. Later in the game especially I feel like I'm getting a good deal if I can trade 100 food for 25 metal at the market. At that rate mercenaries are much more expensive than citizens. Doesn't metal also take more time to mine than food or wood?

[Adeimantos]

18 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

Are they? When I look at the Roman swordsman from the castra (who is advanced rank if I'm not mistaken) and some merc swordsman (also adv. rank) I see the same values for their sword attack and worse for capturing (plus the merc can't gather).

It's just that mercenaries start out already advanced rank, citizens have to get experience or barracks time to get there.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

1 hour ago, Adeimantos said:

There's only a limited amount of metal on the map. Later in the game especially I feel like I'm getting a good deal if I can trade 100 food for 25 metal at the market. At that rate mercenaries are much more expensive than citizens. Doesn't metal also take more time to mine than food or wood?

Metal availability varies a lot by map. Metal is gathered more slowly, but if you want it, you can put as many gatherers as you want on it. If it is a metal-scarce map, then maybe reconsider using mercenaries.

In a25, we rolled out a version of mercenaries where their metal costs were lower because metal was thought to be more "valuable" than the other resources and it was a nightmare for balance.

[Adeimantos]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Metal availability varies a lot by map. Metal is gathered more slowly, but if you want it, you can put as many gatherers as you want on it. If it is a metal-scarce map, then maybe reconsider using mercenaries.

In a25, we rolled out a version of mercenaries where their metal costs were lower because metal was thought to be more "valuable" than the other resources and it was a nightmare for balance.

What did they cost in a25?

[Dakara]

Mercenaries are overpowered, especially when you have metal available. They have more experience so their stats are better.

Especially the cavalry, because you spend less time doing nothing with them.

[Thalatta]

I wonder if completely changing the mercenary system can be considered, right now not much differentiates them from regular units, making them boring. I know they are cheaper in general, expensive with metal, and more experienced, but the Carthaginians seem just overcrowded with similar options, which doesn't make them interesting enough. I think mercenaries should aim at being used by those who have the metal but not the kind of unit, population or time to put in place an army. I don’t know if any of the following can even be done (or if it breaks gameplay somehow): I would make mercenary camps produce units in fixed battalions, fast, with a cooldown, and counting for less population, maybe half. Besides one having to pay a certain amount to hire them, they would charge per certain amount of time as long as they are hired. One can cancel this contract any time, after which they would automatically return to the closest camp of the same type (building a disposable raft if needed, I guess, or they could just vanish on some shore if too much extra art is required for now). The cooldown is always a base time plus a time that depends on their losses, to imagine they have to replenish their forces and avoid spamming them if they are getting destroyed, which would be annoying for the other player. This way one should strategically alternate between all camps, like the Carthaginians should. The only variables needed are size of battalion, population cost per mercenary, metal upfront and rate, and base plus penalty cooldowns, which need to be decided for balance, and maybe modified with techs and auras (considering Hannibal was an inspiring figure for regulars and mercenaries alike).

Edited 2 hours ago by Thalatta

[Grautvornix]

Sounds inteersting - we might also consider that - if you stop paying your mercs - they may turn hostile against you, join your adversary or at least revert to gaia "raiders"? The bribery mechanics could also be used to convert mercs to the other side.

Not sure if this turns out to be too complex micro-managing for gameplay.

[Thalatta]

I thought about rebellion considering the Carthaginian Mercenary Wars, but wanted to keep it simple for now, maybe the basic ideas has to first be tested. And that should happen if you run out of metal while the contract is on. Bribery would be interesting, but troops under Hannibal should cost a fortune for example.

I forgot to say that the cooldown countdown should start after the battalion returns to their closest camp (called Embassy in the game now I remember, but sounds too formal for me, Iberian Camp would be nicer for the context), otherwise they might be instantly available after the contract is finished, which is not the idea. They need to replenish, rest, spend their hard earned money...