Champion cavalry improvements

[AInur]

Hi, I would like to discuss some potential changes to champion cavalry units and their role in the game.

Currently, many players dominate by spamming large amounts of spear champion cavalry in late game. It is becoming the common theme and is getting a bit monotonic. This is fine, however, it causes a few issues:

• Factions without champion spear cavalry suffer in late game: Athenians, Spartans, Mauryas and Britons have little defense against large numbers of spear cavalry champions.
• More spam and less strategy: early attacks and other creative plays always loose to one player who decides to spam large quantities of champions
• Monoculture army

Champions should be elite, rare and cherished, not spammed en masse. I am not saying they are too OP at all; each single champion unit is not significantly stronger than an infantry unit. The issue is the numbers.

My suggestion is to make champions only producible from certain buildings, for example the Imperial Academy of the Han civ, or only allow them to be porduced from fortresses. With this constraint imposed, we can turbo up their stats to even higher values so that they can be used strategically as true distinct champions  and not just spammed upgraded soldiers. The late game is still a game of strategic fights and not spam.

It also doesn't make sense that the same stable is training units of different classes. Elites need better environments and need longer time, so they should get their own buildings. Same applies for infantry champions.

Let me know what you think

Edited November 5 by AInur

[AInur]

Technical bugs with champion units:

- They do not show up on idle units list

- Their pathfinder often traps them in forests or between units

[Gurken Khan]

17 minutes ago, AInur said:

Technical bugs with champion units:

- They do not show up on idle units list

I believe it works as intended, only worker units are on the idle list. There are hotkeys for finding idle warriors, I think they should catch idle champions.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Hey @AInur,

A decent number of multiplayer players like to use the community mod.

Basically it is a balance and gameplay experimentation mod that has been updated a few times since a26 released. I think most of the com mod players would say that balance is overall better than the base game.

In the case of champ cav, they are still strong of course, but they are not almost invulnerable like they are in vanilla.

If you would like to give it a try, go settings->mod selection -> download mods

Edited November 5 by real_tabasco_sauce

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

What do u mean by spear cav being op? I'm returning now in alpha 26 and in previous alphas sword cavalry dominated everything with their single dmg type, more armor, when compared to spear cav and 0.75 attack interval. The same thing would happen when comparing spear to sword infantry. The only option which of course everyone opted for was spear meatshield with mass javelins behind it. Then the next best thing was to substitute your jvaelin men with javelin cav because they had more hp and could run away with your meatshield crumbled

[AInur]

3 hours ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said:

What do u mean by spear cav being op? I'm returning now in alpha 26 and in previous alphas sword cavalry dominated everything with their single dmg type, more armor, when compared to spear cav and 0.75 attack interval. The same thing would happen when comparing spear to sword infantry. The only option which of course everyone opted for was spear meatshield with mass javelins behind it. Then the next best thing was to substitute your jvaelin men with javelin cav because they had more hp and could run away with your meatshield crumbled

Hi, I don't know about previous versions  and I am not saying that Spear Cavalry Champions are particularly OP. I am suggesting a general improvement to how champions are trained and used in the game. The status quo is that they are not being treated as cherished elite units but just hardened soldiers to be spammed everywhere. Not sure if this is a good motif.

Another issue is they ban the use of any other cavalry in the game, which removes any civ that doesn't have spear champions from late game.

 

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

2 hours ago, AInur said:

Hi, I don't know about previous versions  and I am not saying that Spear Cavalry Champions are particularly OP. I am suggesting a general improvement to how champions are trained and used in the game. The status quo is that they are not being treated as cherished elite units but just hardened soldiers to be spammed everywhere. Not sure if this is a good motif.

Another issue is they ban the use of any other cavalry in the game, which removes any civ that doesn't have spear champions from late game.

 

Ok ok now I'm asking why r they spamming spear cav when sword was and i think is still better

[Atrik]

20 minutes ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said:

Ok ok now I'm asking why r they spamming spear cav when sword was and i think is still better

Champ spear cav is just more available and is also the champ cav for the civilsations who have buffed champ cavs; such as Persians, Seleucid and to a lesser extent Gauls.

I guess champs cavs are really just slightly too good of an option too often, because of the mobility and strength, and capture rate. The problem really is that the critical mass of a champ spam being unstoppable is reached too early. If some suggest that they should cost 2 pop, I think it would be too much of a nerf.

Spears could have increased counter damage (restore it to x3 in com mod as an example, no idea why it was brought down to x2.5) and maybe cost slightly increased, like 100metal instead of 80. Also all cavs could have 50% only of the capture rate of their equivalent infantry.

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

36 minutes ago, Atrik said:

Champ spear cav is just more available and is also the champ cav for the civilsations who have buffed champ cavs; such as Persians, Seleucid and to a lesser extent Gauls.

I guess champs cavs are really just slightly too good of an option too often, because of the mobility and strength, and capture rate. The problem really is that the critical mass of a champ spam being unstoppable is reached too early. If some suggest that they should cost 2 pop, I think it would be too much of a nerf.

Spears could have increased counter damage (restore it to x3 in com mod as an example, no idea why it was brought down to x2.5) and maybe cost slightly increased, like 100metal instead of 80. Also all cavs could have 50% only of the capture rate of their equivalent infantry.

well i've heard that the high capture rate of cav is to represent the act of looting/sacking baggage trains or camps which was done traditionally by cavalry. Now if champ cav is a problem then rome must be really op right now

[Atrik]

1 hour ago, PyrrhicVictoryGuy said:

well i've heard that the high capture rate of cav is to represent the act of looting/sacking baggage trains or camps which was done traditionally by cavalry.

If you need a reason to nerf cavalry capture rate you could also say that it's not as convenient to raid a buildings with cavalry. As for swords vs spears, of course against infantry, swords are better. But spears are still the 'alpha' cav as they would counter other cavs, and do pretty much well against infantry in the same time.

[Lion.Kanzen]

2 hours ago, Atrik said:

If you need a reason to nerf cavalry capture rate you could also say that it's not as convenient to raid a buildings with cavalry. As for swords vs spears, of course against infantry, swords are better. But spears are still the 'alpha' cav as they would counter other cavs, and do pretty much well against infantry in the same time.

It is unreal that a horse rider can take a fortress.

The capture rate or capture power should be reduced dramatically.

 

Edited November 14 by Lion.Kanzen

[real_tabasco_sauce]

6 hours ago, Atrik said:

Spears could have increased counter damage (restore it to x3 in com mod as an example, no idea why it was brought down to x2.5) and maybe cost slightly increased, like 100metal instead of 80. Also all cavs could have 50% only of the capture rate of their equivalent infantry.

We should have a discussion on this in the com mod topic. I had complaints that spearmen were too good especially vs melee cav, but now that its back to 2.5x I think its maybe not enough.

On champ cav, the main thing is the mobility. Being able to be super selective on your fights and rarely getting trapped is such a huge factor. It means its very easy to avoid losing the cav. Mobility in general is super strong.

It might be interesting to consider a cav capture debuff vs buildings, or rather a relative infantry advantage versus buildings, which is the case in aoe2. I think it makes sense for the counter to mobility to be defenses like forts. <- this is also why non-random building ai is important.

[chrstgtr]

44 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

It might be interesting to consider a cav capture debuff vs buildings, or rather a relative infantry advantage versus buildings

This makes sense. Champ cav shouldn't be able to capture barracks so fast.  

46 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

I think it makes sense for the counter to mobility to be defenses like forts. <- this is also why non-random building ai is important.

This isn't having any impact. I also don't think changing building AI is the correct way to deal with champ cav being too strong (changing champ cav is). But that's a different topic. 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

26 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

This isn't having any impact. I also don't think changing building AI is the correct way to deal with champ cav being too strong (changing champ cav is). But that's a different topic.

Aye, I was making an aside on mobility in general.

[PyrrhicVictoryGuy]

11 hours ago, Atrik said:

If you need a reason to nerf cavalry capture rate you could also say that it's not as convenient to raid a buildings with cavalry. As for swords vs spears, of course against infantry, swords are better. But spears are still the 'alpha' cav as they would counter other cavs, and do pretty much well against infantry in the same time.

Why would swords be better than spears? I am all in favor of hard counters but you can't say that a spear is worse than a sword. Again i would like to say that jav cav still beats every other cav, that mobility and high dmg values combined with a very small attack interval make them the very best cav in the game, hence why iberians are so good. They have jav cav, swords and spears so they can o everything 

Edited November 14 by PyrrhicVictoryGuy

[AInur]

Easy solution:

Just let every civ have some kind of champion spear cavalry. Why is it so difficult? Most of your 0 A.D. balancing problems can be solved by allowing each faction a complete, minimal roster of units, then you can add fancy units on top of that for diversity. Crippling factions by removing essential units will only cause more and more problems. Today we have an issue with champion spear cavalry, the next day we will have problems with swords, then archers... there is no end to this.

 

[AInur]

I know you want diversity and historical accuracy. Giving each faction the very basics won't conflict with history nor decrease diversity!

 

• Argue that some Athenian and Spartan cavalrymen were very well trained, hence they are of champion level.
• Romans most certainly had archers, Spartans most certainly also had archers and slingers.
• Set Han crossbowmen to have identical stats to skirmishers and fix their farming upgrade bug. History might limit the unit type, but it says nothing about the stats.
• Mauryas can have a champion cavalry swordsman
• Persians most certainly had melee units other than spears. Give them a sword unit or an axe unit!
• Britons most certainly had elite level melee cavalry

 

Every faction in this game is handicapped because some core units were removed in the name of "diversity". Now is the time to add them back!

Please take a look at some factions in mods. Horses didn't exist in America, so the Zapotecs have fast "scout runner" units that look like human but has identical stats to a sword cavalry. Both balance, historical accuracy and diversity is achieved. This approach can be used in the main game.

[chrstgtr]

11 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

Aye, I was making an aside on mobility in general.

Yeah. I’m just saying, unless you’re raiding with one unit (or asleep during the raid), non-random ai buildings isn’t countering champs.

The whole non random behavior is another discussion that involves other factors. I just don’t think it involves champs

[Lion.Kanzen]

13 hours ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

It might be interesting to consider a cav capture debuff vs buildings, or rather a relative infantry advantage versus buildings, which is the case in aoe2. I think it makes sense for the counter to mobility to be defenses like forts. <- this is also why non-random building ai is important

Infantry are supposed to be able to scale walls and enter through tower doors, speaking to how battles worked in ancient times and medieval.

 

 

[MarcusAureliu#s]

In my opinion the issues with "op" units originates from limits of a the counter system. Spear infantry can not counter spear cav champs sufficiently, because they are too slow to keep up. Other RTS games solve this by having anti-melee-cav cav, like AoE 3 for example uses Dragoons to counter op melee cav. So if a civ doesnt have spear cav champions, they should at least have a cav unit, that counters spear cav champions.

[chrstgtr]

4 minutes ago, MarcusAureliu#s said:

Spear infantry can not counter spear cav champs sufficiently, because they are too slow to keep up.

It’s more than just speed. CS spear inf also get destroyed when fighting head on. Maybe it would make sense to give CS spears a slight additional bonus against champ cav to prevent the use of champ cav as a meat shield against CS units 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

11 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

48 minutes ago, MarcusAureliu#s said:

Spear infantry can not counter spear cav champs sufficiently, because they are too slow to keep up.

It’s more than just speed. CS spear inf also get destroyed when fighting head on. Maybe it would make sense to give CS spears a slight additional bonus against champ cav to prevent the use of champ cav as a meat shield against CS units 

a couple com mod versions back, the spearman counter was decreased from 3x to 2.5x. 

[chrstgtr]

39 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

a couple com mod versions back, the spearman counter was decreased from 3x to 2.5x. 

Yeah. But there are two things at play. Spear counter vs inf cav AND spear counter vs champ cav.
 

I’m saying CS Spear vs CS cav feels fine but CS spear vs champ cav isn’t. It’s very frustrating to see spears get slaughtered by melee champ cav when spear are supposed to be some sort of counter 
 

 

Edited November 14 by chrstgtr

[Atrik]

3 minutes ago, chrstgtr said:

It’s very frustrating to see spears get slaughtered by melee champ cav.

Yes exactly, when 100+ cs spears get slaughtered by cavs it's just non-sens. You would think you are playing counter and therefor, even if you can't kill the cavs (because of their mobility), they also can't just run into your spears and kill all, but that's what they do actually.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I see the point, but i'd argue that the ideal balance here is if spearmen are a resource counter to champ cav. They are champions after all. As a resource counter, they might lose with equal numbers or even outnumbering the champ cav slightly, they win decisively when resources are matched.

Edited November 14 by real_tabasco_sauce