Yet Another Post on Sparta

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

I've certainly made suggestions on how Sparta could and should be changed in my opinion, but I would like to hopefully revisit this topic to bring forward a number of suggestions that vary in controversy.  These will in part include negative suggestions, or things I find represented in the civilisation that are ahistorical that could be removed.  Second, there are positive suggestions, or things not represented in the civilisation that could make it more historical.  All of these changes are aimed at creating a more historically authentic, asymmetrical civilisation design that should hopefully make the faction more fun to play.  I would also note that these suggestions should not be taken as a whole but rather as individual pieces, and I am more than willing to admit fault to one being too game breaking in hope of others making their way into the game.  This is after all a game and not a simulation, and there are definite ramifications to a few of these suggestions. 

Negative Suggestions:

-Remove the Stable and Existing Perioikoi Cavalry:

First, I would suggest removing the stable for a simple reason: Spartans had a notoriously horrible cavalry.  Worse, to my knowledge there is no instance of Perioikoi being fielded as a cavalry force.  Examples of cavalry in their army tended to take the form of allied contingents like Olynthian soldiers.  The idea of perioikoi fighting as horsemen comes off as absurd even before that evidence due to fact that only the wealthiest class could afford a horse, and a vassal town makes an unlikely candidate for that dramatic of a social structure.  Instead, all Allied Cavalry could instead be trained at the barracks at the trained at the Town Phase.  Now an obvious problem with this is the fact that it would have a dramatic economic effect on Sparta, which would be bad if solutions aren't put forward.  Here are a few:

Make Skiritae the dedicated hunters for Spartan early game.  This could also be done to other units like Spartan women.  

Have an extremely weak cavalry unit Spartans could train that would never rank up.  This could be called Perioikoi Cavalry (For lack of a better stand in) and would only have effectiveness as a scouting and hunting unit but nothing more.  

-Remove the Theatre:

Browsing through the Wikipedia list for Ancient Greek Playwrights, there are literally no playwrights that came from Sparta.  This is especially important since even if Spartans wanted to put on an Athenian play, it wouldn't work well since they spoke a completely different dialect.  This has the indirect benefit of making factions with the theatre more unique.  This has already been raised, but I think that more exposure to a good idea is a good thing.

-Remove the Market:

Spartans had measures to ensure that trade with other city states was impractical in part due to their iron currency.  I could see the argument of introducing the market an phase later if one would still like to emphasise the issue Sparta had with trade, give a clear gameplay effect, and still not penalise the player too much especially in the late game or team game situations.  

-Remove the Watchtower:

This is a wall turret in all but name.  Sparta should have the capacity to defend itself, but static structures like this should not be the basis of their tactics.

-Make the Civic Centre Train Women and Helots Exclusively:

 This would play into theming of Sparta better.  The Civic Centre can be a purely economic structure dedicated to two units that were central to Spartan life; the Barracks would train vassal or allied troops, and the Mess Hall would train Spartans.  This is a significant departure from typical Civic Centre design, but I think that having variations on this template would benefit the game, and in the future we should put more thought into what specific unit classes are available to be produced from a faction's Civic Centre.  

Positive Suggestions:

-Replace the Helot Javelinist with a Perioikoi Javelinist:

Helots were a distinct social class from the rest of Spartan society, and representing them as soldiers willing to easily die for their country is pretty ahistorical.  Instead, by replacing the Helot unit with the Perioikoi one, you would better represent a role Perioikoi often played in Spartan campaigns.  

-Add the Helot Worker:

This would be a purely economic unit similar to the woman but generally better at collecting every type of resource.  For argument's sake, I could see this unit having a weak ranged attack, but I think anything more would be unthematic.  These would be available to train at the Civic Centre.  They could take up a fighting role by researching a technology called Emancipation or Neodamodeis (Based on the term for an emancipated Helot: νεοδαμώδεις).  This would be akin to the Norse ability in Age of Mythology to transform workers into military units with a nominal cost.  Brasidas could also provide a discount to this emancipation. 

-Make Women have an Economic Aura for Helots:

This would help to make Spartan woman have an integral role in Spartan economy that would hopefully encourage players to balance between protecting themselves with Citizen Soldiers and Spartans and building up a robust economy.  Since their role would in part be auxiliary, I could see them having a higher food cost to compensate for this.

-Make Spartans Available In the Village Phase:

This has been raised by me and many others for an obvious reason: it's pretty oxymoronic for Sparta to not have access to its quintessential unit until the City Phase.  It's effectiveness during this time could be reduced during that point, but I think the suggestion speaks for itself.  Along with this point, Spartans should begin the game with a Spartan.  That would be fun thing like how Kush starts the game with a priest.  Basically, strategy for any player with the Spartans should centre around this specific unit.  

 

My apologies if any of these suggestions are redundant with the Community Mod.  I have exclusively made these suggestions based on my experience with the alpha alone.  Likewise, if any team members or volunteers have already made patches addressing some of the above issues, you have my thanks.

[Vantha]

Two more ideas:

-10% maximum population limit

-the ability to train two heros at once

[Outis]

4 hours ago, Vantha said:

-10% maximum population limit

I propose rather than an overall population limit, to have a limit on the Spartiatai as they had a problem with the number of full citizens rather than an overall problem.

[Outis]

5 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

-Remove the Stable and Existing Perioikoi Cavalry:

First, I would suggest removing the stable for a simple reason: Spartans had a notoriously horrible cavalry.  

I think having notoriously horrible cavalry should not necessarily mean they have no stables. They have cavalry and the horses need to be trained somewhere. What makes more sense its to decrease their effectiveness as you suggested by limiting their progression or even removing some common cavalry upgrades from their tech tree. Or even introducing a penalty like a civilization bonus (as a debuff).

[Outis]

Allow me to make a comment on Spartan heroes:

Leonidas and Brasidas fit well.

I have no idea why Agis is there.

I propose to replace Agis with:

Lysander: known for ending the Peloponnesian War with surpise naval attacks, with bonuses for navy (an option for Spartans to have a decent navy, they are Greek after all)

And/or,

Cleomenes III: known for reforming the society to increase the number of Spartiatai and to introduce the sarissa, allowing Spartans to train pikemen

Big nod to DE @wowgetoffyourcellphone 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Outis

[real_tabasco_sauce]

6 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

-Make Spartans Available In the Village Phase:

This has been raised by me and many others for an obvious reason: it's pretty oxymoronic for Sparta to not have access to its quintessential unit until the City Phase.  It's effectiveness during this time could be reduced during that point, but I think the suggestion speaks for itself.  Along with this point, Spartans should begin the game with a Spartan.  That would be fun thing like how Kush starts the game with a priest.  Basically, strategy for any player with the Spartans should centre around this specific unit.  

This is already done.

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

On 14/11/2023 at 1:39 PM, Outis said:

I think having notoriously horrible cavalry should not necessarily mean they have no stables. They have cavalry and the horses need to be trained somewhere. What makes more sense its to decrease their effectiveness as you suggested by limiting their progression or even removing some common cavalry upgrades from their tech tree. Or even introducing a penalty like a civilization bonus (as a debuff).

Fair.  My thought was having production at the barracks.  The point is that cavalry were not from Sparta itself, and having irregular troops produced at the barracks would help communicate that.  

I'd also agree that Agis IV is a poor choice.  I like Cleomenes III as a hero, but I think a problem is that it doesn't coincide with Spartan hegemony.  Introducing him would be interesting, however.  

Lysander would be an intriguing option to explore, and kind of leads into the idea of Spartan naval gameplay involving acquiring Persian warships.  

I have a soft spot personally for Agesilaus II, who I think led a fascinating life and was responsible for the only effectual Spartan cavalry force.  

On 14/11/2023 at 9:18 AM, Vantha said:

-the ability to train two heros at once

I assume this refers to the fact that Sparta had two kings.  Personally I like that sort of idea, but only if the heroes in game were generic.  As is, Brasidas not being a king makes the whole idea kind of problematic.  Also, it kind of runs into the point that by that perspective Romans should have two heroes to model their consular government.  It's a slippery slope that I think the hero system is not designed to model.  The key problem with that is the need to introduce more heroes to those factions (in my opinion) to make that idea function, which would necessitate even more work.

On 14/11/2023 at 2:08 PM, real_tabasco_sauce said:

This is already done.

Good to know.  

Edited November 19, 2023 by Thorfinn the Shallow Minded

[ShadowOfHassen]

Quote

-Remove the Theatre:

 

Yes. If nothing else happens, could we please have this? I saw exactly 0 records of spartan theaters when I was writing the article on them, and the structure does basically nothing.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

3 hours ago, ShadowOfHassen said:

Yes. If nothing else happens, could we please have this? I saw exactly 0 records of spartan theaters when I was writing the article on them, and the structure does basically nothing.

In another thread I produced evidence that Sparta has a wooden theater in Classical times. It would be interesting to still allow Sparta a Theater, but make it wooden, cost wood, and be weaker. 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

About the Spartan heroes... It has been suggested that we could allow for a larger roster of heroes for each of the civs, but still only allow 3 trained in any given match. Something I like for EA (DE is a different animal). This would allow, e.g., Sparta to have 5 heroes (Leonidas, Brasidas, Lysander, Agesilaus II, and Cleomenes III) available, but the player must choose which 3 they'd like to train in that match. Next match, they might train 3 different heroes, depending on what strategy they're trying to pull off. 

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

8 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

In another thread I produced evidence that Sparta has a wooden theater in Classical times. It would be interesting to still allow Sparta a Theater, but make it wooden, cost wood, and be weaker. 

I did push against that idea, but I will admit that provides a decent grounding for Sparta retaining that structure, and I appreciate learning something new about Laconic culture.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

4 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

I did push against that idea, but I will admit that provides a decent grounding for Sparta retaining that structure, and I appreciate learning something new about Laconic culture.

It would definitely be unique and give them flavor to have a wooden Greek theater, something I think a lot of people didn't know was a thing. For instance, Athens' first theater was wooden as well, and only later was rebuilt in stone and marble. 

[alre]

28 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

It would definitely be unique and give them flavor to have a wooden Greek theater, something I think a lot of people didn't know was a thing. For instance, Athens' first theater was wooden as well, and only later was rebuilt in stone and marble. 

they also had wooden houses, but there is a reason why you don't see them in the game.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

5 hours ago, alre said:

they also had wooden houses, but there is a reason why you don't see them in the game.

Were wooden houses a well known Greek cultural element? 

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

On 15/11/2023 at 11:30 AM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

It would definitely be unique and give them flavor to have a wooden Greek theater, something I think a lot of people didn't know was a thing. For instance, Athens' first theater was wooden as well, and only later was rebuilt in stone and marble. 

That kind of makes me think that the theatre could be available in the Town Phase for Athens, to later be upgraded in the City Phase.  

The key point is that I don't see it feeding well into Sparta's cultural identity.  Athenian theatre has a long and rich history, starting from the tragedians to Old Comedy and finally New Comedy.  If we want a structure with a similar function (namely expanding territory), it should relate to how Sparta conducted its imperialistic ambitions: governmental ideology.  During the time of Lysander especially, Sparta went about installing oligarchies, including the infamous 30 Tyrants of Athens.  This could be represented with their Gerousia structure, which would have the added bonus of having a bunch of yelling whenever you click on it (Sparta famously conducted voting by the loudest side winning).  

On 15/11/2023 at 5:13 PM, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Were wooden houses a well known Greek cultural element? 

It's well established according to Plutarch at least that Spartan houses were a lot rougher looking than other city-states.  Wikipedia, citing a pretty reputable looking source, does note that the best reference for Spartan houses comes from Messenia, where the houses had stone foundations and clay walls.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

I'm not particularly wedded to Sparta having a Theatron in the base game (EA). I think representing a wooden theater somehow would be cool though and I like your idea of the Athenian theater upgrading from Wood to Stone. I think the current stone theater is too Roman in design and needs pared back, specifically the 2nd story/roof over the skene (aka stage). 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

 

 

We already have the Syssitia for their Academy* class structure, so I'm not sure what a Dromos would be for, other than to give some kind of global movement aura. It also has the same problem as a Roman Circus, in that the model would need to be relatively large in order to adequately convey what it is. 

 

4 hours ago, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

It's well established according to Plutarch at least that Spartan houses were a lot rougher looking than other city-states.  Wikipedia, citing a pretty reputable looking source, does note that the best reference for Spartan houses comes from Messenia, where the houses had stone foundations and clay walls.

Well, the Spartan houses have already been modeled and textured to look rougher than the other Hellenic houses.  

 

 

 

*What I call any special champion-training building: Syssiton, Gymnasion, Han Academy. 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 14/11/2023 at 8:38 AM, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

-Remove the Stable and Existing Perioikoi Cavalry:

 

Nah, in fact, I'd add Agesilaus II and give him a cavalry bonus. As others have said, we could remove one or more of the standard Stable techs to effectively nerf the Spartan cavalry. 

 

On 14/11/2023 at 8:38 AM, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

-Remove the Market:

 

The Market is an important structure besides trading. I'd just remove some Market techs and then give the current Macedonian storehouse bonus to Sparta instead (and make up something new for the Macks).

 

On 14/11/2023 at 8:38 AM, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

-Remove the Theatre:

 

As discussed, I'm no longer against this. 

 

On 14/11/2023 at 8:38 AM, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

-Remove the Watchtower:

 

Mehh, again, we can just make their Stone Defense Tower upgrade more expensive or something. The towers fill an important role in the overall meta. 

 

On 14/11/2023 at 8:38 AM, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

-Make the Civic Centre Train Women and Helots Exclusively:

 

Yes.  

 

On 14/11/2023 at 8:38 AM, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

-Replace the Helot Javelinist with a Perioikoi Javelinist:

 

Yet, Helots were used many times in skirmishing roles.

 

On 14/11/2023 at 8:38 AM, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

-Add the Helot Worker:

 

Yes. Except I'd maybe suggest they train from the Storehouse and Granary.

 

On 14/11/2023 at 8:38 AM, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

-Make Women have an Economic Aura for Helots:

 

Yes.

 

On 14/11/2023 at 8:38 AM, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

-Make Spartans Available In the Village Phase:

 

Yes.  

[Outis]

1 hour ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Yet, Helots were used many times in skirmishing roles.

Maybe Helots can be restricted so they cannot upgrade with experience (because they are slaves and they cannot advance in society like get new equipment).

Hero Brasidas gives the option (bonus or tech) to allow Helots to upgrade to Neodamodeis via experience to receive better equipment (like normal citizen soldiers).

[Thorfinn the Shallow Minded]

7 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Yet, Helots were used many times in skirmishing roles.

The point I would make is that it is arguable that Perioikoi made up the majority of these sorts of fighters.  I would see Helots workers becoming military units as only possible through upgrading them as mentioned above.  This would fall in line with the fact Spartans were highly paranoid when it came to their Messenian labour due to the constant risk of rebellions.  Those that would fight on campaigns would be freed of this serf class because they now had the capacity to be a major threat.  Instances of Spartans doing this include a reference by Thucydides mentions this in Book IV, 26.  I am not advocating for the removal of Helot Citizen-Soldiers (Neodamodeis), but Helots that are trained as Citizen-Soldiers from the start.  Basically the change I am asking for is a purely cosmetic one.  Helot Skirmishers that are trained would become Perioikoi Skirmishers.  By the same token, Perioikoi Cavalry would just become Allied Cavalry.  

Also, I would note that there is a technology already introduced that introduces Neodamodeis as a unit.  I would say that this unit can be retained simply by calling them 'Brasidians, in reference to particularly exemplary Helot fighters.  

As for your other points, I think they are reasonable compromises.  Functional gameplay should be the priority after all.  

One matter I did learn that is rather intriguing is that Spartans were actively encouraged to hunt according to Xenophon, which makes me think that perhaps Spartans themselves could play a role in hunting in the early game to represent this fact.  They could be inefficient perhaps, but it's a thought.

[Vantha]

On 14/11/2023 at 2:38 PM, Thorfinn the Shallow Minded said:

Remove the Market:

Spartans had measures to ensure that trade with other city states was impractical in part due to their iron currency.  I could see the argument of introducing the market an phase later if one would still like to emphasise the issue Sparta had with trade, give a clear gameplay effect, and still not penalise the player too much especially in the late game or team game situations.

 

17 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The Market is an important structure besides trading. I'd just remove some Market techs and then give the current Macedonian storehouse bonus to Sparta instead (and make up something new for the Macks).

What about only removing the ability to train traders, but keep the bartering? Having no traders is not that big of a disadvantage. It would also kinda make sense, I mean, bartering itself was always possible, even despite the iron currency, but trading with allies/paying with currency was difficult if not impossible.

[Gurken Khan]

51 minutes ago, Vantha said:

What about only removing the ability to train traders, but keep the bartering? Having no traders is not that big of a disadvantage.

Or maybe lock it behind an extra tec, make traders more expensive or less efficient. I don't know how often it is actually used, but I'd like to point out that Diaspora is locked behind the traders; if someone is using it, it wouldn't be nice to lose the ability.

[hyperion]

1 hour ago, Vantha said:

What about only removing the ability to train traders, but keep the bartering? Having no traders is not that big of a disadvantage.

I suggest you play Polar Sea map once.

[Vantha]

2 hours ago, hyperion said:

I suggest you play Polar Sea map once.

I doubt Sparta with their economy system would have survived on this map in reality.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

29 minutes ago, Vantha said:

I doubt Sparta with their economy system would have survived on this map in reality.

Remember that it is a game though.