Alpha 27 - Roman Fasces might be interpreted as a fascist symbol

[causative]

I see there are minimap icons now that show on unexplored areas of the minimap. The Roman minimap icon is a fasces:

The fasces is an authentic symbol of ancient Rome, but extraordinary care is needed, because it is also a symbol of modern Italian fascism. Does this accurately depict an authentic Roman fasces and not a modern Italian fasces? It is necessary to find an authentic archaeological Roman fasces that matches the picture.

I have doubts. The style of axe is nearly identical to the axe on the flag of Italian fascism. The axe head projects out of the top of the bundle, and it has the same shape of curved blade on the right, the same type of diamond-shaped spike on the left, and a square center-piece.

Doing some google searches, I haven't been able to locate an authentic archaeological Roman fasces with those precise features on the axe. Therefore, unless such an example can be found, this minimap art is representative of specifically Italian fascism and needs to be changed.

For comparison, here are some authentic Roman fasces:

 

Edited May 23, 2023 by causative

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 minutes ago, causative said:

I see there are minimap icons now that show on unexplored areas of the minimap. The Roman minimap icon is a fasces:

The fasces is an authentic symbol of ancient Rome, but extraordinary care is needed, because it is also a symbol of modern Italian fascism. Does this accurately depict an authentic Roman fasces and not a modern Italian fasces? It is necessary to find an authentic archaeological Roman fasces that matches the picture.

I have doubts. The style of axe is nearly identical to the axe on the flag of Italian fascism. The axe head projects out of the top of the bundle, and it has the same shape of curved blade on the right, the same type of diamond-shaped spike on the left, and a square center-piece.

Doing some google searches, I haven't been able to locate an authentic archaeological Roman fasces with those precise features on the axe. Therefore, unless such an example can be found, this minimap art is representative of specifically Italian fascism and needs to be changed.

I told to wow about that symbol.

 

I prefer to use Luperca (the she-wolf).

Or goddess Roma.

[Lion.Kanzen]

6 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

I told to wow about that symbol.

 

I prefer to use Luperca (the she-wolf).

Or goddess Roma.

 

 

[causative]

I want to say I don't have an objection to using a fasces as a Roman symbol - I'm not one to censor history because it offends modern sensibilities. But, if there is to be a fasces, it had better be very clearly based on a real Roman fasces, and not based on the flag of the Italian fascists. For example, if it had two opposing long and skinny axe blades at the top (instead of a wide axe blade and a diamond-shaped spike), like the rusted Roman fasces above, that would be sufficient to identify it as a Roman one and not an Italian one.

Edited May 23, 2023 by causative

[Stan`]

2 minutes ago, causative said:

I want to say I don't have an objection to using a fasces as a Roman symbol - I'm not one to censor history because it offends modern sensibilities. But, if there is to be a fasces, it had better be very clearly based on a real Roman fasces, and not based on the flag of the Italian fascists. For example, if it had two opposing long and skinny axe blades at the top (instead of a wide axe blade and a diamond-shaped spike), like the rusted Roman fasces above, that would be sufficient to identify it as a Roman one and not an Italian one.

@wowgetoffyourcellphone said he would look into an alternative in the coming days.

[Lion.Kanzen]

Just now, causative said:

I'm not one to censor history because it offends modern sensibilities.

The art of that symbol is based on modern iconography and not on ancient representations, you are right, there is no reason to censor a symbol just because X ideology used it a century ago.

 

The symbol is older and is not related to facist ideology.

 

I don't see it as Roman to use the facist symbol to represent "Romanity".

[Lion.Kanzen]

I see no problem with using the fasces, this is the appropriate place (the game) to represent them.

 

Wanting to erase history is something serious and censorship of history is something typical of the novel 1984, if people knew and entered openly to know the history would not be forgotten.

 

The issues will be talked about openly instead of falling into attacks with Ad hominem for example "white supremacists" or "racist" or "sexist".

Most of them are unfounded attacks or without using correct terminology and many times hypocritical.

 

There is a lot of ignorance and political propaganda with these terms.

 

To rewrite history is to try to destroy it and to fall into ideological puritanical thinking.

[Gurken Khan]

10 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

Wanting to erase history...

10 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

To rewrite history...

Dude, could you try to stick to the topic at hand? The point being not to use the exact symbol the fascists used but another version of the fasces.

[Lion.Kanzen]

5 minutes ago, Gurken Khan said:

Dude, could you try to stick to the topic at hand? The point being not to use the exact symbol the fascists used but another version of the fasces.

I have already given my very simple solution.

 

But we are still arguing about the symbol, this already happened when I put swastikas on the Hindu shields.

 

I can ask you to open a separate topic, there is no need to cry so much for one topic.

 

Simple and practical solutions.

 

@Stan` split the topic. Please.

[Gurken Khan]

38 minutes ago, Stan` said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone said he would look into an alternative in the coming days.

I consider the discussion over. No need for an extra topic.

[Lion.Kanzen]

54 minutes ago, Stan` said:

@wowgetoffyourcellphone said he would look into an alternative in the coming days.

You're sure?

 

It is not the only symbol misused.

 

The Iberian One isn't Iberian.

[hyperion]

12 hours ago, causative said:

I want to say I don't have an objection to using a fasces as a Roman symbol - I'm not one to censor history because it offends modern sensibilities. But, if there is to be a fasces, it had better be very clearly based on a real Roman fasces, and not based on the flag of the Italian fascists.

Fascist symbol:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fascist_symbol.svg

Logo of the PNF:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:National_Fascist_Party_logo.jpg

 

They don't look similar but the coat of arms of St.Gallen does somewhat:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_arms_of_canton_of_St._Gallen.svg

 

So for me as long as it's clear what is the source and the source is unproblematic the current logo seems fine. Not that I object to changing it either.

 

[causative]

1 hour ago, hyperion said:

Fascist symbol:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fascist_symbol.svg

Logo of the PNF:

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:National_Fascist_Party_logo.jpg

 

They don't look similar but the coat of arms of St.Gallen does somewhat:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coat_of_arms_of_canton_of_St._Gallen.svg

 

So for me as long as it's clear what is the source and the source is unproblematic the current logo seems fine. Not that I object to changing it either.

 

You may have missed my earlier post with the pictures. The current minimap icon is a close match to the flag of Italian fascism (different from what you linked) based on details of the axe (the diamond-shaped spike, the broad head, the square boss joining the two).

The Canton of St. Gallen formed in modern times (1803) so its coat of arms may be modern as well. It would be better to base the art directly on an original Roman artifact.

Edited May 24, 2023 by causative

[hyperion]

4 minutes ago, causative said:

You may have missed my earlier post with the pictures. The current minimap icon is a close match to the flag of Italian fascism based on details of the axe (the diamond-shaped spike, the broad head, the square boss joining the two).

We can expect the fascist to have done their research as well and based their logo on authentic sources.

For example the ones depicted in  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces#/media/File:Roman_armour_and_accessories.png look a lot more like the one commonly associated with fascism. The same for the stone tablet and the coin you posted.

The two sided axe is from an Etruscan tomb if my search didn't fail me, so can it be considered Roman?

I'm not saying your are wrong or the image shouldn't be changed, just that I suspect any form of authentic faces may be linked to fascism one way or another if one looks hard enough.

[Genava55]

51 minutes ago, causative said:

The Canton of St. Gallen formed in modern times (1803) so its coat of arms may be modern as well.

Yes, the coat of arms has no connection with a previous symbol. It is due to the modernisation of Switzerland and the fall of the Helvetic Republic made by Napoléon. The author of the coat of arms wanted to make a direct reference to the republic system. A small anecdote, during the WWII they modified the coat of arms to add a swiss cross to distinguish it from the fascist symbol, they removed the cross in 1951 when it was not necessary anymore.

[causative]

@hyperion As long as it is a faithful representation of an authentic Roman fasces, there is no problem. Again, the current minimap logo is much closer to this flag of Italian fascism than to any authentic Roman fasces artifact.

In the link you most recently posted (here) there are some apparently authentic Roman fasces, though we can't be quite sure because it is a modern reproduction rather than an ancient original. Anyway, those fasces could be distinguished from various Italian symbols by the shape of the blade. The similar Italian ones curve up around the animal head, where the authentic ones have a straighter axe head. They could also be distinguished by the size of the eagle head; the Roman ones have a larger eagle head than the Italian ones. By faithfully reproducing these differences it can be made clear that it is a Roman fasces and not an Italian one.

Edited May 24, 2023 by causative

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 23/05/2023 at 2:04 PM, Lion.Kanzen said:

The Iberian One isn't Iberian.

It's simply a generic lion's head. You are welcome to vectorize another symbol for me if you wish.

We could go ahead and use the Lusitanian minimap icon to represent the Iberians, since the Iberians also represent the Lusitanians in vanilla game.

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

17 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

It's simply a generic lion's head. You are welcome to vectorize another symbol for me if you wish.

We could go ahead and use the Lusitanian minimap icon to represent the Iberians, since the Iberians also represent the Lusitanians in vanilla game.

 

What happened to the wolf I vectorized?

 

The Brytonic symbol also looks very strange.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

15 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

The Brytonic symbol also looks very strange.

The Britons symbol will not change. It was already debated and decided.

 

15 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

What happened to the wolf I vectorized?

You tell me.

[Lion.Kanzen]

8 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The Britons symbol will not change. It was already debated and decided.

 

You tell me.

I finished it, I didn't find out if you needed anything else.

[fabio]

It looks like this was addressed in 27652, right? Are there any other occurrences of the original (fasces) symbol remaining in the game?