Germans [Cimbri]redesign for TM

[Lion.Kanzen]

We have a problem and it is that we need a Germanic faction that matches 500- 1 BC and does not exceed this date.

 

@Genava55

We will need your help for a little  redesign.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Lion.Kanzen

[Genava55]

The Suebi, Semnones, etc. are generally thought as being related to the Jastorf culture.

The Jastorf culture is mostly known for its incineration burials. It started during the 7th century BC, so it is old enough. The only issue is that they didn't put weapons in their burials until mid 1st century BC, probably due to the influence of the nearby Przeworsk culture. The first known figure of the Suebi is Ariovistus... and that's all for the campaign of Caesar. So they are basically ruled out just because of that. 

The Lugians or Vandals are generally associated to the Przeworsk culture, starting around 200 BC. Contrary to the Jastorf culture, they buried their people and they put weapons with them. It seems to have been a very martial society. Big issue although, they have mostly none known figures.

Finally we have the Cimbri, Teutones and Ambrones. There are some finds from Denmark that could be useful. The Cimbri had Boiorix for king, the Teutones and Ambrones had Teutobad. Two chieftains of the Cimbri are also mentionned Claodicus and Caesorix.

So I think the only candidate are the Cimbri, just to have enough historical figures.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Genava55
Sh*tty forum

[Lion.Kanzen]

19 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

So I think the only candidate are the Cimbri, just to have enough historical figures

The gameplay should change a bit, right?

We can use the Cimbri as an umbrella for other factions within.

 

It should have a nomadic look.

In military terms, what is the difference between Cimbrians and Suebians?

[Stan`]

Thanks @Genava55! I suppose we can go with them then.

[Yekaterina]

Please start thinking about structure tree and unit tree of this civ

On second thought, we can literally just rename the Suebians to Cimbrians

Also the suebs are probs not too OP cuz it has no very special units like the Gaul trumpeters or fanatics

[Yekaterina]

The Suebians are using HochDeutsch in many places, not sure if that's appropriate 

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 hours ago, Yekaterina said:

On second thought, we can literally just rename the Suebians to Cimbrians

that's the idea. We would change some things, the way they work, they would have some nomadic functions.

 

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 hour ago, Yekaterina said:

The Suebians are using HochDeutsch in many places, not sure if that's appropriate 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic_language

 

[Genava55]

On 21/12/2022 at 4:56 PM, Ultimate Aurelian said:

Possible specific names for units ; i used wiktionary and some names from total war mods

Spearman:
Harjaz (Warrior or commander)
Warjaz (Defender, Citizen)
Wīgamann (Warrior, Champion)

Militia Clubman:
Slahandz (Striker, Killer)
Breutandz (Destroyer, breaker, Smasher)
Warjaz (Defender, Citizen)

Axeman:
Slahandz (Striker, Killer)
Mōdagaz (Brave, courageous)
Akwisīwaldaz (Axe-Wielder)

Javelinist:
Jungilingaz (Youth)

Slinger:
Slingwandz (Slinger)

Scout:
Sōkijandz (Seeker)

Cavalry javelinist:
Welwô (Plunderer, robber)

Cavalry Spearman
Ridanz

Champion Swordsman:
Herunautaz (Sword owner)
Gahlaibô (Messmate, comrade, companion)
Sagjaz (Retainer, Warrior)
Kuningasþegnaz (King's retainer, King's servant)
Þegnaz (retainer, servant)
Herthaganautaz (Hearth Companion)
Haliþaz (Hero)
 
Champion cavalry:
Erlaz (Noble)
Marhafrawjô (Horse Lord)

Ram:
Rammaz (Ram as in the animal; there is no evidence the word was associated with siege engines like in the classical world)
Gatabreutandz (Gate smasher)

Wolf Warrior:
Wulfaharjaz (wolf Warrior)
Wulfahadinaz (Attempted early form of Ulfheodnar)
Blōþądrinkandz (Blood drinker, from Paul the Deacon's account of the Lombard "cynocephali"
Wōdaharjaz (Frenzied warrior)

Villager:
Karilaz (Freeman)

Slave:
Þewaz

Merchant:
Wihslōndz (Trader)
Kaupô (Inkeeper, Merchant; Borrowed from Latin)

Priest:
Gudjô
Wīhōn
Haljarūnō (Witch, sorceress; could be used in case they get a priestess instead of priest)

Fishing boat:
Fiskarijasbaitaz (Fisherman's boat)

Trading boat:
Rinaskaupô (Rine Merchant)

Pig:
Swīną

Cow:
Kūz

Sheep:
Skēpą

Reconstructions of hero names:

Ariovistus:
Ariouistos (Celtic)
Harjafristaz (Germanic; means army leader)

Maroboodus:
Marobodwos (Celtic, Great raven, great war god)
Marabadwaz (Germanic, great battle)
Marabodwaz (Germanic)

Ballomar:
Ballomaros (Celtic, great limb)
Balþamerijaz*

*The last one is a Proto-Germanic name who survived as the Galician ''Baldomar'', it is a fusion of balþaz (“bold”) and mērijaz (“great; famous”). I have not seen anyone else suggest this origin for Ballomar; it is just speculation on my part.

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Genava55

[d34d svn]

Awesome.

Soon we will see a fully function Suebi in 0AD.

Edited February 24, 2023 by d34d svn

[Lion.Kanzen]

10 minutes ago, d34d svn said:

Awesome.

Soon we will see a fully function Suebi in 0AD.

First it goes through a design, testing and redesign process in the mods and now even in individual mods.

[Lion.Kanzen]

On 23/02/2023 at 6:10 AM, Yekaterina said:

Please start thinking about structure tree and unit tree of this civ

On second thought, we can literally just rename the Suebians to Cimbrians

Also the suebs are probs not too OP cuz it has no very special units like the Gaul trumpeters or fanatics

Renamed .

 

Suebi will be exclusive for second part.

Cimbrians will be our Germans for now.

 

 

[Genava55]

For the symbol, I would suggest a solar wheel. We can use a reference from the late bronze age since there is no record of native art:

https://media.lex.dk/media/17783/standard_helleristninger.jpg

For the heroes, Boiorix is the best candidate, we have some info about thim. Lugios, Claodicos and Caesorix are barely mentionned in the source.

According to the ancient sources, Boiorix seems to have had a certain preponderance on the other mentioned Cimbres leaders. Thus, in 105 BC, it is at the head of the Cimbres that he crushed the army of the legate Marcus Aurelius Scaurus in Transalpine Gaul. Livy described him as a young man full of pride and arrogance. According to this same author, Boiorix made prisoner the legate Marcus Aurelius Scaurus. While the latter tried to divert the Cimbres from Italy, the young leader had him tortured (Periochae, LXVII). His name was not mentioned on this occasion, but everything leads to think that he took part in the battle of Arausio (October 6, 105 BC), then during the later expeditions. Boiorix was again mentioned in July 101 BC. when he came himself to challenge the consul Caius Marius. Both agreed that the confrontation of the two armies took place at the level of the Raudian Fields, near Vercellae (Verceil, province of Verceil, Italy) (Plutarch, Parallel Lives of the Illustrious Men: Life of Marius, 26). It was during this battle, the battle of Vercellae (July 30, 101 BC), that Boiorix died, while fighting in the front rank (Florus, Abridged Roman History, III, 4; Orosius, Histories against the pagans, V, 16, 20). Lugios died in the same conditions, whereas Claodicos and Caesorix were taken alive (Histories against the pagans, V, 16, 20).

Florus, Abridgment of Roman History, III, 4: "Their king Boiorix fought bravely in the front rank and made his death pay dearly."

Orosius, Histories Against the Pagans, V, 16, 20: "Among these many forms of miserable death, it is reported that two chiefs rushed at each other with naked swords. The kings Lugius and Boiorix fell on the battlefield; Claodicus and Caesorix were captured."

Plutarch, Parallel Lives of Illustrious Men: Life of Marius, 26: "Boiorix, king of the Cimbres, at the head of a small detachment of cavalry, having approached the camp of Marius, provoked this general to fix the day and the place of the combat, to decide who would remain master of the country. Marius answered him that the Romans never took council of their enemies to fight; that however he wanted to satisfy the Cimbres on what they asked. They therefore agreed that the battle would be given in three days, and on the plain of Vercellae, a convenient place for the Romans to deploy their cavalry, and for the Barbarians to extend their numerous army."

Livy, Roman History (Periochae), LXVII: "Mr. Aurelius Scaurus, lieutenant of the consul, is defeated by the Cimbres and falls himself in their power. Called by them in council, he tries to make them give up the project of crossing the Alps and penetrating into Italy, by telling them that the Romans cannot be defeated. He is killed by king Boiorix, a young man filled with pride and arrogance."

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Teutobad is not very well known and there is a legend he was a giant:

Florus, Epitome of Roman History, 1.38 - ca. 150 CE : The War with the Cimbri, Teutones and Tigurini
The Cimbri, Teutones and Tigurini, fugitives from the extreme parts of Gaul, since the Ocean had inundated their territories, began to seek new settlement throughout the world, 2 and excluded from Gaul and Spain, descended into Italy and sent representatives to the camp of Silanus and thence to the senate asking that "the people of Mars should give them some land by way of pay and use their hands and weapons for any purpose it wished." 3 But what land could the Roman people give them when they were on eve of a struggle amongst themselves about agrarian legislation? Thus repulsed they began to seek by force of arms what they had failed to obtain by entreaties. 4 Silanus could not withstand the first attack of the barbarians, nor Manilius the second, nor Caepio the third; they were all routed and the camps captured. 5 There would have been an end of Rome if that age had not had the good fortune to possess Marius. Even he did not dare to meet the enemy immediately, but kept his soldiers in camp until the irresistible fury and rage, which in barbarians takes the place of courage, spent itself. 6 The barbarians, therefore, made off, jeering at our men and — such was their confidence that they would capture Rome — advising them to give them any messages which they had for their wives. With a speed which amply fulfilled their threats, they bore down towards the Alps, which form the barriers of Italy, in three detachments. 7 Marius with wonderful celerity immediately, by taking shorter routes, outstripped the enemy, and coming upon the Teutones first at the very foot of the Alps, what a defeat he inflicted upon them, ye heavenly powers, at the place called Aquae Sextiae! 8 The enemy held the valley and the river flowing through it, while our men had no water-supply. It is uncertain whether the general acted designedly or whether he converted a mistake into a stratagem; at any rate the valour of the Romans under the constraint of necessity gave them victory. 9 For when the men demanded water, Marius replied, "If you are men, there it is yonder for you." With such ardour, then, did they fight and such was the slaughter of the enemy that the victorious Romans drank as much barbarian gore as water from the blood-stained stream. 10 Their king, Teutobodus himself, who had been accustomed to vault over four or even six horses, could scarcely find one to mount when he fled, and having been captured in a neighbouring forest was a striking figure in the triumphal procession; for, being a man of extraordinary stature, he towered above the trophies of his defeat.

 

Eutropius, Abridgment of Roman History, 5.1 - ca. 369 CE
While the war was going on in Numidia against Jugurtha, the Roman consuls, Marcus Manlius and Quintus Caepio, were defeated by the Cimbri, Teutones, Tigurini, and Ambrones, nations of Germany and Gaul, near the river Rhone; and, being reduced by a terrible slaughter, lost their very camp, as well as the greater part of their army. Great was the consternation at Rome, such as was scarcely experienced during the Punic wars in the time of Hannibal, from dread that the Gauls might again march to the city. Marius, in consequence, after his victory over Jugurtha, was created consul the second time, and the war against the Cimbri and Teutones was committed to his management. The consulship was also conferred on him a third and fourth time, in consequence of the war with the Cimbri being protracted; but in his fourth consulship he had for his colleague Quintus Lutatius Catulus. He came to battle, accordingly, with the Cimbri, and in two engagements killed two hundred thousand of the enemy, and took eighty thousand prisoners, with their general Teutobodus; for which service he was elected consul a fifth time during his absence.

Orosius: Marius, now consul for the fourth time {102 B.C.}, pitched his camp near the confluence of the Isara and Rhone rivers. The Teutones, Cimbri, Tigurini, and Ambrones fought continuously for three days in the neighbourhood of the Roman camp, trying by every means to dislodge the Romans from their ramparts and drive them out on level ground. They then resolved to invade Italy in three armies. 10 After the departure of the enemy, Marius also moved his camp and occupied the hill overlooking the river and the plain where the enemy had spread themselves. When his army lacked drinking water, complaints arose on all sides against him; he answered that there was certainly water in plain sight but that it would have to be claimed by the sword. The camp servants, shouting loudly, were the first to rush into the fray; then the army immediately followed. Lines of battle were quickly formed for regular combat. An engagement was fought in which the Romans were victorious. 11 On the fourth day both sides again drew up lines of battle upon the field. The struggle raged on almost equal terms until midday. Under the burning rays of the sun, the flabby bodies of the Gauls melted like snow, and a massacre rather than a battle continued into the night. 12 Two hundred thousand of the Gallic soldiers, according to report, were slain in that battle, eighty thousand were captured, and barely three thousand fled. Their general Teutobodus was killed.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Genava55

[Genava55]

  Borremose "fortress"

Spoiler

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Jes_Martens/publication/330902229_Refuge_-_fortified_settlement_-_central_place_Three_years_of_archaeological_investigations_at_the_Borremose_stronghold/links/5c5ac4fc299bf1d14caf787a/Refuge-fortified-settlement-central-place-Three-years-of-archaeological-investigations-at-the-Borremose-stronghold.pdf?origin=publication_detail

Iron age Jutland village of Hodde

Spoiler

Celtic weapons:

Spoiler

Bones weapons:

Spoiler

Wooden weapons:

Spoiler

One-edged swords:

Spoiler

Celtic like spearheads:

Spoiler

Battle-scene:

Spoiler

 

[sternstaub]

Thanks to all the people involved for putting such effort in improving and expanding the game  

[Lion.Kanzen]

Przeworsk culture shields elements

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Traces-of-repairs-located-on-shield-elements-a-Kamienczyk-grave-293-DABROWSKA-1997_fig1_329308673

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

I'm going to need @Obskiuras to design some elements .

[Ultimate Aurelian]

On 23/02/2023 at 9:10 AM, Yekaterina said:

Please start thinking about structure tree and unit tree of this civ

On second thought, we can literally just rename the Suebians to Cimbrians

Also the suebs are probs not too OP cuz it has no very special units like the Gaul trumpeters or fanatics

They could have an archer instead of slinger, champion cavalry with sword instead of spear and perhaps a citizen swordsman instead of club/axe infantry.

Not sure if they should keep wolf warriors.

They would have more celtic influence and possibly a more armored roster (Elite infantry has metal and wood helmets, champions have chainmail and helmets).

Buildings i think would be more or less the same, although if you want to give them a nomadic playstyle you might have to change it to tents?

[Genava55]

Although I don't understand why we are talking about including a German faction in 0 A.D. vanilla, it is very sudden.

Scythians, Xiongnu, Lusitanians, Thracians, Cimbri, Maya, Zapotecs... is there some kind of euphoria spreading in the forum or just immaturity?

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

3 minutes ago, Genava55 said:

Although I don't understand why we are talking about including a German faction in 0 A.D. vanilla, it is very sudden.

Scythians, Xiongnu, Lusitanians, Thracians, Cimbri, Maya, Zapotecs... is there some kind of euphoria spreading in the forum or just immaturity?

The Germans we've been discussing are for Terra Magna and Delenda Est.

 

[Genava55]

1 minute ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The Germans we've been discussing are for Terra Magna and Delenda Est.

Then could you explain to me this :

On 22/02/2023 at 5:49 PM, Yekaterina said:

If you want to steal templates from Millenium AD, fine... I will just copy and rename them.

Right now the Suebs are also stealing from the Gauls, Carolignians

Which civ out of terra magna has the highest priority? THey are all bugged to some extent but some more than others. we should focus on the one that we would like to implement in the next alpha. 

 

 

On 22/02/2023 at 5:59 PM, Stan` said:

Suebians and Imperial Romans should be empires_besieged;

Suebians are too lat ine the period to be included in the main game.

 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

1 minute ago, Genava55 said:

Which civ out of terra magna has the highest priority? THey are all bugged to some extent but some more than others. we should focus on the one that we would like to implement in the next alpha. 

I have no idea what @Yekaterina is talking about; we're not implementing any German faction for next alpha in the main game. The community poll and momentum is clearly for Nomads (Scythians and Xiongnu) to be included next in the main game (largely for the unique gameplay possibilities). The discussion around Germans over the past few weeks has largely been around fixing/adding them for TM and DE until that comment.

 

Quote

Suebians and Imperial Romans should be empires_besieged;

Suebians are too lat ine the period to be included in the main game.

What is your contention with this comment? 

[Genava55]

1 minute ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

I have no idea what @Yekaterina is talking about; we're not implementing any German faction for next alpha in the main game. The community poll and momentum is clearly for Nomads (Scythians and Xiongnu) to be included next in the main game (largely for the unique gameplay possibilities). The discussion around Germans over the past few weeks has largely been around fixing/adding them for TM and DE until that comment.

1 minute ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

What is your contention with this comment? 

Then why this thread? Why all this debate about the Cimbri?

Is this what you want?

[Stan`]

@Genava55 My idea is to have the Cimbri for Terra Magna, which is (or at least should be) covering the same period as Empires Ascendant, so -500 B.C. 1 A.D.

And have the Suebi for Empires Besieged the "sequel" to the game, which currently hasn't been started, other than in Delenda Est which covers roughly - 500 B.C. 200 A.D.

 

[Genava55]

33 minutes ago, Stan` said:

My idea is to have the Cimbri for Terra Magna, which is (or at least should be) covering the same period as Empires Ascendant, so -500 B.C. 1 A.D.

So if I understand your message correctly, the Cimbri won't be a part of the main game (Empires Ascendant), only a civ for a mod. Right?

Edit: so it is better to keep the changes to the minimum from the original Suebi

33 minutes ago, Stan` said:

And have the Suebi for Empires Besieged the "sequel" to the game

El famoso sequel... in the end it won't be a different game but an extension of the current Empires Ascendant right? So all the factions from Empires Besieged would be available alongside those from Empires Ascendant, right?

Edited February 26, 2023 by Genava55