Grautvornix

Please don't misunderstand - my point was not to criticise and I do enjoy the passionate discussion in this forum about historical aspects of the game! Just believe we should make it interesting to a beginner, and this motivation would most likely be increased if the scenario and the civ was a popular, well-known one. (Also the map needs to be beautifu; we just have so many beautiful maps it is difficult to select onel )

While I do like historical accuracy and reference, it looks to me as if it is not so easy to find that one suitable scenario for a beginner's tutorial. What if we created - either a phantasy scenario that tells the story of establishing a "yet unknown" greek colony somewhere in Anatolia or a small Aegean island. - or a "made-up" one with a great and well-known reference that does not need much explanation of the historical background. (e.g. life in a Germanic village, that, after a few lessons, culminates into the Limes map/or the opposite, establish a Roman colony in Germania and then finally build a Limes. Would it make sense to have the same tutorial with different scenarios the player can select from? This would certainly mostly make sense for the phantasy scenario option. Just the player can use his favourite civ and then play a tuorial. We could use few different civs each with a specific biome but the same scripting.

Oops - ok then should it start in the middle of somewhere? Or with a little ship that has to be sailed to the nearest coast? Or should there be a CC already?

Why not starting from a shipwreck with a handful of men & women plus a hero like in a nomadic mode? Start building a CC and collect berries and wood. Build a house. Build a dumpsite /storage near the wood. Train a scout, go hunting, get attacked by a wolf. Build a farm and some fields. Build a stable and produce cattle. Start buidling a small army. Scout the environment. Get attacked (trigger map) by bandits. Continue discovering, meet your friendly neighbor who offers an alliance. Build a market and start trading with your new ally. Respond to a request for help against bandits. All this does certainly not train the strategic basics but the fundamental mechanics of the game. Strategy should be the subject of the next lessons. For everything wer might need some guidance material, e.g. a tutor window giving tasks and explaining strategic options (where to build what, how to optimize things etc.). Could that be implemented?

I admit that this would sacrify historical accuracy in favor of a story.

Right, but interestingly we have a (very nice) map with exactly the scenario of Greeks attacking Troy. My point is Rome was certainly not built in a day, but as a scenario for newcomers it could provide certain attractivity.

Imagine you are Aeneas, survivor of Trojan war, arriving at the Italian coast (maybe historically not correct. Also noticed we don't have that civ, should it be something greek?) You land with your last ship with 5 comrades (citizen soldiers e.g. peltasts) and 5 women citizen. Build a harbour. Use your citizen to collect berries and wood. Use the soldiers to hunt wild goats. Survive a wolf attack. Collect sufficient wood and food to top up your supplies so you can build a CC. Build a fishing boat and go fishing. After you have collected enough food, train a scout. Start discovering your environment (beautiful landscape and various resources - forest, wild game, stone quarries) until you meet your neutral neighbor. He offers you an alliance if you send 100 units food and 100 wood). become an ally. Help them fighting some bandits responding to their call. Build a market Start a trading route with your ally. Next game: the son of Aeneas is challenged to build a small military force to fight against bandit attacks. Barracks, outpost, manned tower. Soon you are to establish Rome... (I do agree there would be far too many timejumps...)

That's all very valid argumentation - but the original point was less about soil fertility itself that can indeed be improved by appropriate treatment, but more generally the suitability of various types of terrain for farming, i.e. a complex made out of water availablility and soil structure. Irrigation systems are currently nbot part of the game (e.g. building wells, pipes, aquaeducts or the like) (apologies, you might tell from that that I have played "settlers" a lot in the past). That would be a future possibility I would be looking forward to. BTW, destroying your opponent's irrigation system could be a strategy to weaken their farming yield, very much an economical impact like attacking their traders/markets. The whole point is also not about technology within the tech tree but about different parts of a map could be more or less suitable for farming. Agree that this would need to be implemented within the map itself. Sorry, here is a related topic (could not resist): A more simple system could be based on climate or biome: I always wondered how one can grow e.g. a ricefield in an arctic environment. in those maps we should depend more on fishing or hunting, potentially also on livestock breeding. Could there be a general farming malus based on the biome type? (as an example nubian, sahara, arctic, or savanna biomes could have malus settings). All these proposed changes, climate/biome dependency as well as terrain type, could add another little strategic dimension to the game - where to put the next farm, and possibly also where to put the next CC without being too complex.

Just asking as you stated that we don't have that in 0AD - but we do (I think). I can fight together with allies against whomever. (that's why I asked what this special cooperative mode should be.)

@Lion.KanzenCooperative Mode? Is that working wiht your ally(ies) against a common adversary? Or does that refer to all against gaia? (sorry for my stupid question!)

Of course I do!

Well, I believe all this is intended to serve as background info/justification why this scenario is interesting. The training campaign description must be much, much simpler, of course. I guess the important points are: learn to move units and fight in a small battle learn essential parts of building a colony (CC, farms, wood, etc..) learn structured build-up learn about diplomacy/trade learn fighting in larger campaigns We just need a suitable story around this.

This is ultra-cool! Great storyline that should well motivate newcomers getting to know the game!

Wait a moment: "shipwreck" is the specific treasure delivering wood that is placed on the map onshore or offshore, right? This can be gathered by anyone on land who can reach it, not only traders. "Merchantmen" most likely refers to the trading vessels I guess. I do agree that this is an unnecessary limitation that is hard to understand why. Instead fishing boats and scout ships should be enabled to collect these treasures as well (in addition to the original capability of everyone on land).

According to my experience, shipwrecks ashore can already be gathered plundered by pedestrians/cavalry. Difference is only if the wreck is placed off the coastline and it cannot be reached by land forces. I do like the proposal to extend the wreck collection capability to other ships, but not to all ships: I would propose limiting it to merchant vessels and fishing boats, possibly scout ships just to make thinks a bit more interesting: Fishing boats are available in the first phase so this is an option. Scout ships might not always be built as they have comparatively low value in battle hence treasure hunt capability could increase their use.

I like it a lot!

Just to complete this argumentation here is the link to a short thread about this subject discussing various pros and cons:

I am loving it! Could there be a way to carry over resources from one game to the next in row?

Awesome! Do I interpret correctly that some of the buildings are in a flooded area that is now covered by ice? (or are they being built on ice?)

Frankly, I prefer "has fallen in battle" over "has been vanquished". Ther former is a bit less formal and better understandable to the casual Englisch speaker.

Oops - actually, I wonder if as a player I would be aware that my ally actually trained a hero. I am not so sure to have seen any respective message (or maybe I did not pay enough attention ). Does anyone know more? Given the fact that heroes don't stand out as e.g. in the Ilias I am not sure if we need to inform everyone that one has fallen. Personally, I believe that neutral and adverse players don't need that notification anyway. Allies and observers would be sufficient. Regarding the message, I would not use the words "in battle" as there could also be a Gaia- attack (lions, etc.)

In my opinion, the second one is clearly much better

Thanks! So this idea is not a totally absurd We might need to make sure it is put on the agenda every now and then .

Is it possible in 0AD to ask for peace (i.e. surrender) during or after an attack, with the other party then asking for tribute in return? While I don't think this is currently possible, would it be useful to create interesting constellations? Asan example, the tribute could also possibly also consist in troops? (would work like mercenaries that don't cost population for the receiveing party) This could potentially lead to interesting options where you could regain power after some time and revert the surrender -> extended gameplay, particularly in multiplayer AI matches.

For desert maps (my favourite subject, it seems), good farming area is where there is green patches in the sand. Bad area is where there is no natural green. This could lead to a situation where you initially hunt animals and cut tress and put farmland where the trees used to be.