Sundiata

Wow, it just hit me why the ancient region of Ariana (which includes Bactria) was named as such... Interesting read...It always surprises me how complacent so many people are when they believe that the lies will benefit them.

Irredentism can be an ugly thing... Even the different types of genetic studies are so varied and difficult to interpret, even by the experts. Different researchers can sometimes come up with wildly differing conclusions from one and the same study. There are just too many factors. Samples are often suspiciously small, ignore "outliers", use questionable "proxy populations", focus too strongly on lineal descendants, and ignore collateral kin and stuff like that... Then there's wild card concepts like genetic drift, which can cause gene variants to disappear and completely obscure certain ancestries, or "cause initially rare alleles to become much more frequent and even fixed", resulting in the possible "over-estimation" of certain ancestries. Genetic studies are interesting, but they're also a mess... Right back where we started... Has it ever really been any different though?

It actually has very little to do with Nazism, and everything to do with the Khazar Hypothesis of Ashkenazi Ancestry, and the possible implications for political Zionism. Some of the prominent proponents of the theory were/are actually Jewish themselves. This Khazar Hypothesis states that the Ashkenazim are largely, or in part descended from Khazar Jews. This potentially undermines one of the fundamental pillars upon which the modern state of Israel is founded, as it questions the Middle Eastern origin of many of the European Jews. ("one nation solemnly promised to a second nation the country of a third."). Therefore people studying, or even discussing the theory are automatically branded anti-semitic, for political reasons. Of course, the fact that there are also anti-semites promoting the theory doesn't help either... That having said, genetic studies don't really seem to back up the Khazar Hypothesis. Any admixture seems to have been marginal. Although I'm very confused what exactly they were testing Ashkenazim genes against, because ancient Khazar ethnicity is exceedingly obscure, complicated and heterogenous... If they don't know who the ancient Khazars were from a genetic/ethnic point of view, how in the world do they test the Hypothesis (no verification samples)? Anyway, it seems obvious that all the historical Jewish populations of the world, including Ashkenazim are at least somewhat related to each other, as well as to the people of their host-countries, as well as to the Arabs of North Africa and the Levant, including Palestinians. Anybody making absolute claims about Ashkenazim solely being descendants from Khazars, or Central/East Europeans vs Ashkenazim solely being descendants from levantine Jews, is bound to be wrong. Genes and population movements are always really complicated.

@Victor Rossi Woooow I love it! That scarred eye looks badass! I think it looks great as it is, but if you want to push the accuracy even further, *Puts on my Captain Nitpick-cape: My only suggestion would be to add some more detail to the jewelry (earrings and necklace), which look a little generic now. Here are some authentic Meroitic examples:

Hahaha I know right, Turkic Nomads, converting to Judaism and establishing the only Jewish Empire in history, on the Pontic steppe... One of those untold histories...

Perhaps the current gers to represent animal skins, and a whiter variant to represent felt? I dunno...

There are 25 pages in this thread, so that would be a good place to start reading up on the references used in the development of this civ. There are other threads discussing Xiongnu as well, I believe. Animal skins or felt are the standard material for yurts/gers. Fabrics, sometimes colorful are also used today, but weren't the norm +2000 years ago, and many of the modern colors (like the use of bright yellow) are later Buddhist influences. I'm not saying there isn't room for improvement, there always is, and I don't oppose them. Perhaps a a brightness/contrast adjustment and a few colorful highlights for the main ger, or future shaman's ger wouldn't be too bad. I personally just don't see the issue with how they are now.

@Genava55 true, the history of that region is amazing! Ancient Bronze Age urban societies and all... The climate was also somewhat wetter +2000 years ago, so it would have been a lot greener back in the day. A sort of heavenly place, according to many accounts. The ancient city of Balkh (Bactra) really fascinates me. Some mighty impressive city walls: The late medieval history of the region is also pretty amazing. You forgot to mention the Timurid Empire , centred on Bactria/Sogdiana. It was Huge! Founded by Timur Lenk (Tamerlane), a decadent self-invisioned "heir" to the Mongol Empire. He made Samarkand his capital and built a really nice mosque there, the Bibi-Khanym Mosque, still standing today (after restorations):

But 0AD isn't a fantasy game. It's a historical game. Of course there are artistic licenses taken, but only where it's merited. If the people want eye catchy, there are quite a number of eye-catching civs to choose from already (although I personally consider the Xiongnu quite eye-catching already). I think the more mute colors of the Xiongnu goes well with their more natural, nomadic feel. Shamanic, in closer proximity to nature than any other civ. I think the Scythians offer a much better opportunity for a bright and colorful, eye-caching nomadic civ. Just my opinions though.

Nice...

Am I the only one who likes the Xiongnu textures? I mean, those yurts are covered in animal skins... How bright and colorful does it need to be??

Long term goals: The Greco Bactrian Kingdom of 1000 cities... One of the richest and most powerful Hellenistic states, if only for a brief 131 years (256 BC - 125 BC). A precursor to the Indo Greek Kingdom (180 BC - 10 AD). They're quite interesting, representing the most Eastern extent of Greek rule after Alexander's conquest. A vast Kingdom encompassing Bactria, Sogdiana and Ferghana, as well as parts of Persia and the Punjab. Syncretizing Greek religion with Bactrian and Iranian influences, and partly converting to Buddhism and Zoroastrianism. Mixing Achaemenid and Greek architecture. Influencing artistic developments in India and China. Multi-ethnic and multi-cultural, with Greek kings ruling alongside local kings. They fought a major war with the Seleucids. They bordered, and had generally good relations with the Maurya Dynasty. They also bordered the Han Chinese! And there seems to have been conflict between them or the Yuezhi (proto-Kushans, similar to Xiongnu) in or around the Tarim Basin in Xinjiang, the Western most part of modern day China. The Han Chinese proceeded to a full on invasion of the Greek cities in Ferghana in the wake of the fall of Greco Bactrian Hegemony after the invasions of the nomadic Yuezhi. This Greek-Chinese war is dubbed the War Of The Heavenly Horses. The Chinese referred to the Greeks as Dayuan (Great Ionians)... As the Scythians connect the West to the East through the extensive contact with the Xiongnu over the Eurasian steppe, the Greco Bactrians connect the East to the West through the contact with China over the Tarim Basin, establishing the beginnings of the Silk Road. A pretty decent general introduction: Greek-Chinese war. Isn't this stuff delicious? Like finger licking delicious??

And this: Different units already have different gathering rates. Such wide differences in shuttle speeds as well just compounds the issue, so it would be really good to be able to adjust the speeds in the templates.

That's the main question... I'm not a hero at unit stats, at all. Hyperrealism isn't feasible, so I don't have problems with abstractions. They should just kind of make sense. I think it makes sense that slingers move faster than other units, and I don't have a problem with the extra range (although this shouldn't be exaggerated). In an ideal world, slingers should automatically spread out when attacking in some sort of a loose formation, but without working formations this seems kind of difficult to achieve for now. It would do a lot to mitigate the massed slinger spam tactic which is definitely overused. So it would be a nice long term goal to keep in mind when reworking formations. For now, I just think that slingers should have slightly less health, and deal slightly less damage than archers to compensate for their range and speed. Slightly... I don't think in depth discussions about sling bullet damage vs arrow damage are necessary for now, considering the large variety of bullet sizes and shapes, as well as the large variety of bows and arrows. Some arrows shot from some bows would hardly penetrate an adult body wearing no armor at all, and could be easily pulled out by hand. Other types of arrows shot from certain composite bows would knock a grown man in full armor off his feet, and would be nearly impossible to remove from the body once it penetrated (barbed). So there is a lot of wiggle room/room for interpretation/discussion. Could even be tied to the specific civs. Iberian slingers for example were legendary, while some slingers in other cultures are barely mentioned by anyone. Same goes for the archers. Archery, like slingers were a pretty universal unit, but are hardly mentioned or used by some, while they form the bulk of the armies for others. I think in the long turn, this should all be civ-specific. For now, a very simple and modest nerf for the slingers seems in order.

In battles, there are a lot of variables, and failing to take as many of them into account results in these awkward situations where "slingers" outperform "archers". I'm not denying that experienced slingers could outrange most archers, or that sling bullets aren't potentially lethal, but there are some important variables to take into account. There is a huge difference between the flimsy self bows generally used in Western Europe, and the recurve and composite bows generally used in the East. Like, a really huge difference. There is also a huge difference between highly experienced slingers and rookies that simply couldn't afford anything better than a sling. The second thing everyone seems to forget is that slingers need much more space to operate than archers. Slingers sling the rocks around before launching the projectile, and therefore obviously need a large radius of free space to operate in. Archers could be easily packed in tight formations, even rows of archers without risking injuring each-other. This means that dense archer formations could fire clouds of arrows, whereas slingers need open ground and space to operate. Archers can even fire from from cover like bushes and trees/forests, whereas slingers literally can not.

Herding has come up in some discussions before, but would still require quite some work to get in the game. The Xiongnu are also nomadic in-game. They can pack and un-pack their structures and move them to a different location. They're not 100% complete, but nomadic game-play will definitely evolve in future alpha's. Feel free to check out Terra Magna (download from the in-game mod-downloader), which features the Xiongnu alongside the Han Chinese and the Zapatecs.

This was interesting: Soooo... That really looks like he used our civilization emblem for the Xiongnu, doesn't it? Perhaps an adaptation of Stanislas' iteration to be precise? In the previous page of this thread Mauiaw asked to use the emblem in his mod for Shogun 2, Total War, so that might explain it? Anyway, it looks cool

This was good

I can As usual, I'll take a few days...

I think the difference is that Japan was populated by successive waves of different populations, whereas Hawaii was populated by successive waves of Polynesian peoples. My knowledge on the subject is also very limited, which makes it all the more interesting to me Have you ever heard of Nan Madol, the main archaeological site of the island of Pohnpei in the Western Pacific (Micronesia)? Pretty cool stuff...

I think it depicts the Polynesian migrations to Hawaii.

I think they rolled it up during engagements. But the angle of the mast could be a little steeper, so the sail would end up a little higher. The mast doesn't need to be as long either. I don't think the sail should extend beyond the prow ram of the ship. Anyway, amazing work as usual, @Alexandermb

"Ho'omau" - Short Film "A mass migration of Pacific Islanders in search of salvation leads to a war between the native population and the growing numbers of new arrivals, and a young girl stuck in the middle is forced to choose between fighting for what she loves or to save what is left of it."

The African Queen Who Stood Against Rome A bit simplified and romanticized, but an entertaining 4 min narration of the Kushite Roman war nonetheless. Cute animations. I wish some of the bigger Youtube History stars like Kings and Generals or Epimetheus would make a few videos on the various chapters in Kushite history... Apparently Will Packer is even going to produce a movie about Amanirenas for Universal (although there are very little details available).

I think ethnicity in the Middle East including the Arabian peninsula is actually incredibly complex. I'm personally not in favor of ignoring political realities to create a single muddled up faction like the "saracens" in AoE, based solely on the notion of shared ethnicity. The Umayyads were a vast and multi-ethnic state that incorporated Arab, Persian and Byzantine influences, as well as everything in between, and far beyond. I'm in favor of depicting an actual state that really existed, rather than separating a "single" ethnicity from that state, stripping it of all non Arab elements, of which there are many, and then present it as a historical faction, which it wouldn't be... It doesn't make sense to me. It made sense in vanilla for the Gauls because of a lack political cohesion, and the Iberians because of a lack of references. Neither of these things are an issue with the Umayyads.