Balancing the Han

[real_tabasco_sauce]

Hello Everyone,

Rather than dig up the old topic for balancing han, I started a new one centered around RC1, which @Stan` has graciously provided us 

Since the Han is a new civ added, we will need to carefully ensure everything is well balanced.

 

To start, here are concerns of mine:

Stacking unique economic technologies:

1. Farming upgrades are +25%instead of 20% (p1)

5. Rice paddies are cheaper, smaller than farms (more can be protected)

3. higher rice gather rate for women (.6 vs .5)

4. ministers (slight eco bonus)

5. imperial ministry upgrades (cheaper buildings, non-forge techs) (p1,p2)

6. crossbows cheaper wood cost

these will make han a top tier eco civ, possibly competing with ptols.

 

Stackable military stats:

hero: -50% promotion experience

fort upgrade: -25% promotion experience

This could be OP: nearly instant rank 3 units.

 

Champions:

5 different champs, 3 champ cav. Some civs only have 2 (britons) and 1 (spartans).

 

Very strong defenses:

great tower, super CC, stronger walls, can build multiple laozi gates for pretty cheap.

This is probably stronger defense than iberians.

 

It seems they have the eco of the ptols, top tier heroes, probably the best military, and on top of it all: 220 pop.

Everything that makes the other civs good, the han seem to have all in one package.

Edited July 11, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[real_tabasco_sauce]

I would say immediately:

farm upgrades back to 20 percent instead of 25.

only 1 laozi gate permitted.

I bet these will be unanimously agreed upon.

I expect further nerfs will be required on top of these two.

Edited June 13, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[AIEND]

I think it's better to consider the issue of historical authenticity first, "laozimen" as a facility does not exist at all in reality.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

24 minutes ago, AIEND said:

issue of historical authenticity first

to be honest I think gameplay is a higher priority. In any case, this is a topic about balance, not history.

Edited June 13, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[AIEND]

1 分钟前，real_tabasco_sauce 说：

老实说，我认为游戏玩法是一个更高的优先级。 无论如何，这是一个关于平衡的话题，而不是历史。

The gameplay and the player's sense of substitution are based on our restoration of historical reality. Adding non-existent facilities is like introducing dragons and magic. It may be interesting, but it is divorced from the theme of the game.

[Lion.Kanzen]

30 minutes ago, AIEND said:

issue of historical authenticity first, "laozimen"

what is that?

[AIEND]

1 分钟前，Lion.Kanzen 说：

那是什么？

[real_tabasco_sauce]

9 minutes ago, AIEND said:

The gameplay and the player's sense of substitution are based on our restoration of historical reality. Adding non-existent facilities is like introducing dragons and magic. It may be interesting, but it is divorced from the theme of the game.

yes, but it has already been added. Either we remove it (waste of art development time) or balance it. I refuse to make this a discussion on history. We discuss balancing the civ here.

[Lion.Kanzen]

7 minutes ago, AIEND said:

uh...the gate...I hardly ever make it.

[AIEND]

1 分钟前，real_tabasco_sauce 说：

是的，但它已经被添加了。 我们要么删除它（浪费艺术开发时间），要么平衡它。 我拒绝将此作为历史的讨论。 我们在这里讨论平衡文明。

The faction of the Han Dynasty is still in a state of incomplete design. Only when the design is formed based on history is it suitable for a balanced discussion of the content. Otherwise like "laozimen", it doesn't make sense to include it in the balance discussion if we end up removing it, I'm stressing that.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

4 minutes ago, AIEND said:

Otherwise like "laozimen", it doesn't make sense to include it in the balance discussion if we end up removing it, I'm stressing that.

yes but a balance option is removing it. Please can we talk about balance here?

@Lion.Kanzen why don't you ever use it?

Edited June 13, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[Lion.Kanzen]

3 minutes ago, AIEND said:

The faction of the Han Dynasty is still in a state of incomplete design. Only when the design is formed based on history is it suitable for a balanced discussion of the content. Otherwise like "laozimen", it doesn't make sense to include it in the balance discussion if we end up removing it, I'm stressing that.

it's normal, it's their first alpha.

[AIEND]

4 分钟前，Lion.Kanzen 说：

这很正常，这是他们的第一个 alpha。

I always don't want to leave what I already know to the next version, we can make Han Dynasty perfect enough in Alpha 26.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

20 minutes ago, AIEND said:

I always don't want to leave what I already know to the next version, we can make Han Dynasty perfect enough in Alpha 26.

I understand, and we all thank you for your knowledge, but please discuss this in another discussion because this is about balance.

[Lion.Kanzen]

27 minutes ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

why don't you ever use it?

aesthetic reasons and perception.
I find them cliche.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

4 minutes ago, Lion.Kanzen said:

aesthetic reasons and perception.
I find them cliche.

my concern is that they are stronger and cheaper than temples, with a 75 meter range.

[Lion.Kanzen]

1 minute ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

my concern is that they are stronger and cheaper than temples, with a 75 meter range.

yes, another reason not to use op stuff.

[Stan`]

@wowgetoffyourcellphone

Please also mind the recent commits. We removed the rice subtype. Han still have a grain gathering malus.

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

The "laozigate" I'm not sure where that came from. It looks more like a Páifāng to me, or "District Gateway." Hence in Delenda Est I made it give a trickle of coin to the player (and as a special free starting structure, it is unbuildable). Perhaps some ideas can spring from this.

 

We can remove the Imperial Ministry structure and give its function to the Imperial Court civic center upgrade. We can keep the Ministry structure in Atlas, as it is very nice. Then look for more interesting and less OP benefits to the techs.

 

"Art of War" could be changed to some other benefit. Maybe +10% health to soldiers or to champs and heroes only. Suggestions?

 

[Stan`]

19 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

The "laozigate" I'm not sure where that came from. It looks more like a Páifāng to me, or "District Gateway." Hence in Delenda Est I made it give a trickle of coin to the player (and as a special free starting structure, it is unbuildable). Perhaps some ideas can spring from this.

It was one of the special buildings along with the white bridges which didn't make the cut to vanilla apparently.

[Yekaterina]

I agree that the Han has OP economic strenghts, however, their military is outstandingly weak, which achieves a balance. The reason being, all of their ranged units deal too little damage per second. Archers and crossbows with melee can't possibly beat an army of slingers or javlins of equal size. In late game, they depend purely on champions, but their champions are trained from Imperial Academy instead of barracks, which makes spamming much more difficult. 

@real_tabasco_sauce if you think the Han are really that OP, I challenge you to a 1v1 where you use the Han and see if you can beat me, where I will be using a 'weak' civ of your choice. 

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

Move "Civil" techs to the Imperial Court civil center, altered and nerfed:

Spoiler

Civil Engineering (Level 1)

• Old: "All structures −15% build time, +10% health and −5% cost."
• New: "All Structures −10% build time and −10% cost."

Civil Engineering (Level 2)

• Old: "All structures −25% build time, +20% health and −5% cost."
• New: "All Structures +20% health."

Civil Service (Level 1)

• Old: "Technologies at all buildings, except the Forge, −15% cost and −15% research time."
• New: "Ministers −50% train time."

Civil Service (Level 2)

• Old: "Technologies at all buildings, except the Forge, −15% cost and −15% research time."
• New: "Ministers +50% health."

 

 

Ministers also moved to the Imperial Court. The Imperial Ministry removed from the building queue.

 

"Sun Tzu's Art of War" moved from the Fortress to the Academy:

• Old: "All Citizen-Soldiers −25% required promotion experience."
• New: "All Champions −10% train time and +10% health."

 

"Federated States" population bonus moved from being automatic, to requiring a Wonder to be built first.

 

Possibly. @AIEND

"Laozimen" Laozi Gate renamed to "Paifang" District Gateway.

• Old: "Humans +1 health regeneration rate, +25% health. Range: 75 meters. MinDistance: 60 meters."
• New: "Suggestions Needed."

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by wowgetoffyourcellphone

[real_tabasco_sauce]

3 hours ago, Sevda said:

The reason being, all of their ranged units deal too little damage per second. Archers and crossbows with melee can't possibly beat an army of slingers or javlins of equal size.

I think you are right about the ranged units. That being said, do not underestimate archers. Sometimes players much more skilled than I can make them work quite well, despite them being pretty weak.

Make no mistake: when i started this topic I wanted a discussion on what might be OP. I think all civs should have strengths and weaknesses, but it was just apparent to me that Han had too many different strengths. I think the ranged units limitation (no skirms/slings) is fine as is and justifies the unique crossbow upgrade.

I don't want them nerfed into the ground, but rather that we are sure the nerfs we make are the best choices.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

3 hours ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

Ministers also moved to the Imperial Court. The Imperial Ministry removed from the building queue.

 

"Sun Tzu's Art of War" moved from the Fortress to the Academy:

• Old: "All Citizen-Soldiers −25% required promotion experience."
• New: "All Champions −10% train time and +10% health."

 

"Federated States" population bonus moved from being automatic, to requiring a Wonder to be built first.

 

Possibly. @AIEND

"Laozimen" Laozi Gate renamed to "Paifang" District Gateway.

• Old: "Humans +1 health regeneration rate, +25% health. Range: 75 meters. MinDistance: 60 meters."
• New: "Suggestions Needed."

 

I like these suggestions. Perhaps the new aura for the gate could be movement speed? Any gate can be a symbol of logistics, so maybe the gate can be indicative of roads and organized infrastructure. Maybe thats too boring, but for the cost I think it's appropriate.

Also, because han ranged inf are all slow (archers crossbows), this will be a helpful building to have, for quick retreating or harassing border. In addition, it has a slight eco bonus.

Should they still get a building limit?

Edited June 14, 2022 by real_tabasco_sauce

[AIEND]

5 小时前，wowgetoffyourcellphone 说：

将“Civil”技术人员移至 帝国法院 民事中心，修改并削弱：

  揭示隐藏内容

土木工程（一级）

• 旧：“所有结构 -15% 建造时间，+10% 生命值和 -5% 成本。”
• 新 ：“所有结构-10% 建造时间和-10% 成本。”

土木工程（2级）

• 旧：“所有结构 -25% 建造时间，+20% 生命值和 -5% 成本。”
• 新 ：“所有建筑+20% 生命值。”

公务员（一级）

• 旧：“所有建筑的技术，除了熔炉，-15% 的成本和 -15% 的研究时间。”
• 新 ：“部长 -50% 培训时间。”

公务员（二级）

• 旧：“所有建筑的技术，除了熔炉，-15% 的成本和 -15% 的研究时间。”
• 新 ：“部长 +50% 生命值。”

 

 

大臣 们也搬到了朝廷。 帝国 部 从建筑队列中移除。

 

《 孙子兵法 》从炮台搬到书院：

• 旧：“所有公民士兵 -25% 需要晋升经验。”
• 新 ：“所有冠军 -10% 训练时间和 +10% 生命值。”

 

“ 联邦 ”人口奖励从自动变为需要 奇迹 先建造

 

可能。 @AIEND

“ 老子 门”老子门改名为“ 牌坊 ”区门户。

• 旧：“人类+1 生命恢复率，+25% 生命值。射程：75 米。最小距离：60 米。”
• 新 ：“需要的建议。”

 

As a kind of memorial building, "paifang" was roughly formed in the Song Dynasty, before it was just the gate of an ordinary residential area. During the Han Dynasty, many of the current Chinese religions were immature, so there was a lack of buildings that could provide aura buffs.