Slingers defeat javs in an even and controlled head-to-head battle. Why?

[SneakEP]

I tested battles of various sizes with my friend who was playing Iberian javelineers versus my Ptolemy slingers, and the results are always the same: the slingers defeat the javs. In test runs of 25 slingers vs 25 javs, 50 v 50, 75 v 75, and 100 v 100, where we tried one of these three settings: 1) we set the armies next to each other both on "passive" then clicked "aggressive" at the same time (we practiced this many times to get the timing down), 2) we started the armies on aggressive and each clicked on the opposing army's front soldier, or 3) we started the armies on aggressive and had one of the two armies attack the other by clicking on their front soldier, the slingers always win. 

Why does this happen? Javs and slingers have the same intervals and the same resistances. The slingers have 45 range v the javs' 30 range, which is why we tried setting 1 (refer to above), but even with the javs 16 pierce damage v the slingers 11.5 pierce and 1.1 crush damage, the slingers still defeated the javs every time.  We tested setting number one with them at least two times with each of the numbers above of 25 each, then 50, 75, and 100. If anyone is interested in seeing this for themselves, I'd be happy to test with you. If you see some big/significant flaw in my testing, let me know. 

Best,

EP

[Player of 0AD]

Well then slingers have more accuracy

[Yekaterina]

1 hour ago, SneakEP said:

I tested battles of various sizes with my friend who was playing Iberian javelineers versus my Ptolemy slingers, and the results are always the same: the slingers defeat the javs. In test runs of 25 slingers vs 25 javs, 50 v 50, 75 v 75, and 100 v 100, where we tried one of these three settings: 1) we set the armies next to each other both on "passive" then clicked "aggressive" at the same time (we practiced this many times to get the timing down), 2) we started the armies on aggressive and each clicked on the opposing army's front soldier, or 3) we started the armies on aggressive and had one of the two armies attack the other by clicking on their front soldier, the slingers always win. 

Why does this happen? Javs and slingers have the same intervals and the same resistances. The slingers have 45 range v the javs' 30 range, which is why we tried setting 1 (refer to above), but even with the javs 16 pierce damage v the slingers 11.5 pierce and 1.1 crush damage, the slingers still defeated the javs every time.  We tested setting number one with them at least two times with each of the numbers above of 25 each, then 50, 75, and 100. If anyone is interested in seeing this for themselves, I'd be happy to test with you. If you see some big/significant flaw in my testing, let me know. 

Best,

EP

I would like to know a few more details of your experiment:

1. What formations did your units stand in?

2. What was the initial separation between the back lines of both armies?

3. How dense were your formations?

4. Did you do any micro, upgrades or if any other civ bonus came into effect?

5. In which directions were your soldiers facing before the battle? Turn time might affect the outcome

I have a more reliable method of testing this: using Atlas scenario editor. Place both armies down in straight lines with each unit facing in opposite directions. 

If you want to test dps then place the 2 armies as close as you can, otherwise if you would like to test an encounter from a distance then place them 80m apart so that they will be aggressive to each other and can still detect the presence of enemy.

I will test this myself. If slingers are able to defeat javelin units at close range then that is a cause for concern: slingers are OP again.

[Player of 0AD]

Slingers are way more expensive than javeleneers, except for maps with low wood. The fact that slingers beat javs in 1v1 doesnt mean that they are op. javs still deal more damage against melee. And if they reach rank three the inaccuracy is lower. Will test rank 3 units against each other

[SneakEP]

4 hours ago, Sevda said:

I would like to know a few more details of your experiment:

1. What formations did your units stand in?

THEY WERE IN BOX FORMATION OR NO FORMATION

2. What was the initial separation between the back lines of both armies?

CLOSE ENOUGH SO THE BACK RANK OF THE JAVS COULD ATTACK IMMEDIATELY 

3. How dense were your formations?

DENSE. EITHER BOX OR NO FORMATION ALL CLOSE TO EACH OTHER

4. Did you do any micro, upgrades or if any other civ bonus came into effect?

NO UPGRADES  

5. In which directions were your soldiers facing before the battle? Turn time might affect the outcome

IDK IN THE SETTING WHERE THEY STARTED RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER

I have a more reliable method of testing this: using Atlas scenario editor. Place both armies down in straight lines with each unit facing in opposite directions. 

IS THAT A MOD I NEED TO GET?

WOULDN’T WE WANT THEM ALREADY FACING EACH OTHER? THIS IS A GOOD IDEA TO LIMIT ANY RANGE PROBLEM IF NECESSARY BUT IT’S LESS PRACTICAL

If you want to test dps then place the 2 armies as close as you can, otherwise if you would like to test an encounter from a distance then place them 80m apart so that they will be aggressive to each other and can still detect the presence of enemy.

I will test this myself. If slingers are able to defeat javelin units at close range then that is a cause for concern: slingers are OP again.

YES PLEASE TEST. I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO TEST WITH YOU IF YOU LIKE  

 

[SneakEP]

5 hours ago, Player of 0AD said:

Well then slingers have more accuracy

How do I find out this number on various units? 

[SneakEP]

3 hours ago, Player of 0AD said:

Slingers are way more expensive than javeleneers, except for maps with low wood. The fact that slingers beat javs in 1v1 doesnt mean that they are op. javs still deal more damage against melee. And if they reach rank three the inaccuracy is lower. Will test rank 3 units against each other

Why would they do more to melee? 
I see, you say more expensive because stone is harder to come by and you have to manage it early on instead of just wood. So you are saying because it’s harder to pay for them, then it’s fine that they are more powerful and have better range than javs? 

[Freagarach]

5 hours ago, Sevda said:

Turn time might affect the outcome

There is no turn time for attacks. (Well, there is a visual turn time, but not an internal one.)

1 hour ago, SneakEP said:

IS THAT A MOD I NEED TO GET?

Nope, you can start it from within the game: Scenario Editor (third one from the bottom).

[Player of 0AD]

1 hour ago, SneakEP said:

Why would they do more to melee? 

Either melee walks close to them --> accuracy doesnt matter
or they walk as close to melee as they need. Slingers do the same but they stay more far away, so they will be less precise. Compare this to jav vs sling.

And melee troops are usually dense enough so a shot which misses hits another unit.

1 hour ago, SneakEP said:

I see, you say more expensive because stone is harder to come by and you have to manage it early on instead of just wood. So you are saying because it’s harder to pay for them, then it’s fine that they are more powerful and have better range than javs? 

Yes

And I just tested: In a rank 3 battle the javs win even if they need to walk more.   In a rank 2 battle the slingers seem to be better.

And on  very short range the javs have more firepower in general

And then there is the iber team bonus which can make javs even cheaper.


So... Dont change anything. Lol

[Player of 0AD]

2 hours ago, SneakEP said:

How do I find out this number on various units? 

I forgot it. Maybe ask the devs who decided to implement this and to hide it from the players ; )

[Freagarach]

https://docs.wildfiregames.com/ and more specific: https://docs.wildfiregames.com/templatesanalyzer/.

[Yekaterina]

3 hours ago, SneakEP said:

How do I find out this number on various units?

You need to extract public.zip, then go into simulation/templates, where you will see templates files for default structures and units. Open the XML files with a web browser or a text editor, e.g. Atom, Sublime-Text, Visual Studio... There will be a tag named <Spread> with a value next to it, that is the accuracy. The larger spread the lower the accuracy. 

 

[alre]

cousin claimed one or two months ago, that melee+slingers is more effective than melee+javs, but of course there's the fact that slingers are more expensive.

then there is trash archers.

[Yekaterina]

[Yekaterina]

These are the results of my experiments. If the initial separation of the 2 armies is greater than 45m without melee units, then slingers will win. Otherwise, skirmisher units will win. Melee favours the skirmishers as their dps is higher. 

[davidsrsb]

Slingers should cost more as training time is higher.

Back in the real world slingers can carry far more ammunition

[SneakEP]

2 hours ago, Sevda said:

These are the results of my experiments. If the initial separation of the 2 armies is greater than 45m without melee units, then slingers will win. Otherwise, skirmisher units will win. Melee favours the skirmishers as their dps is higher. 

Would you mind testing this together? These are not the results that I got, where slingers defeated javs in all of the above settings.

[Yekaterina]

4 minutes ago, SneakEP said:

Would you mind testing this together? These are not the results that I got, where slingers defeated javs in all of the above settings.

Of course. I am waiting for you in the lobby. 

[SneakEP]

7 minutes ago, Sevda said:

Of course. I am waiting for you in the lobby. 

The game is up! It's called "Testing with Sevda"

[real_tabasco_sauce]

looks fine to me