Millenium AD - REVAMP

[Radiotraining]

2 hours ago, Dasaavawar said:

I suppose Kievan Rus (879–1240) should come before the Moscovite Rus (1263–1547)

Yeah, honestly I picked Moscovite Rus because it had been already initiated in the forum.. but yeah, we can "twist" it to Kiev/Novgorod Rus' for that matter

I also think that the buildings/aesthetics of it may be pretty interchangeable among those states that has formed around the Volga. And it's a pretty intersting and recognizable style.

[Dasaavawar]

21 minutes ago, Radiotraining said:

 we can "twist" it to Kiev/Novgorod Rus' for that matter

I think at this precise moment it's good to simply focus in one of all these possible (Russian) factions. I think it's also important to don't be too ambitious with creating a huge number of factions but instead to work focused.

(I neither would like to see many clones of a cool faction (as it's currently happening to the planned Greek factions), 2 to 3 Russian factions should be more than enough).

[Radiotraining]

11 minutes ago, Dasaavawar said:

I think at this precise moment it's good to simply focus in one of all these possible (Russian) factions. I think it's also important to don't be too ambitious with creating a huge number of factions but instead to work focused.

(I neither would like to see many clones of a cool faction (as it's currently happening to the planned Greek factions), 2 to 3 Russian factions should be more than enough).

Good to mention this. But rest assured, I absolutely think the same!

Since the very beginning I wanted to focus to maximum 3 civs that are well differentiated between each others. Exactly to not fall into the trap of too many similar civs/assets that are even more difficult to manage without confusion (like the many hellenic civs or barbaric tribes)

So I proposed only Rus' (we can decide which of the factions ), Avars and Japan, which are all pretty cool.. and interesting in the same period..

Some people in this thread have proposed also Lombards, which could be also interesting, but I wouldn't go further than that. And I would still stick to maximum 3 civs as a goal

Edited November 2, 2021 by Radiotraining

[Dasaavawar]

Under that order of ideas, then I think it's moment to decide which of the 3 possible Russian factions to develop (at least first).

In my humble opinion, I still think the Kievan Rus should be the (first) Russian faction to be developed. (It's the one that matches more the time period of the mod). But obviously this would be matter of the a group decision, not mine. What do you think about that?

Also, there are still many things left for this mod; Norse wonder and Norse priests (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothi#Mainland_Scandinavia), proper Anglo-Saxon boats (the current ones are the same as Gauls / Britons boats), Norse store wagons (with Icelandic horses!), Carolingians horse stables and arsenals, Norse aresenals, more heroes, hero portraits for all factions, etc.

Maybe this is also the chance to fix all of those other details.

[Radiotraining]

I'm pretty positive to all the things you have mentioned!

I'm fine about shifting towards Kievan Rus'. Maybe would be nice to have the opinion of @Andronikos Medinawho is taking care of the historical aspect of it. But I think it would work fine, especially considering the presence of Byzantium and Norse civ in the mod already, and the close ties between all these civs.

 

About the previous civs, so far I was thinking more of Umayyads that are still without a proper building set, but @Lopesstook the initative to cover that aspect, and I'll probably help him in this.

To be honest, the idea to work on the mod started all a bit spontaneously, but I'm disconnected from the people who worked before or those who manage the mod, so I'm all interested to hear the people already more involved. 

I agree this could be a good occasion anyway to revisit the previous assets and fix what was still unfinished

 

[Andronikos Medina]

In the same way, I think it would be more appropriate to develop the Kievan Rus given the chronology in which the game develops, although I must emphasize that the changes may be few.

[Radiotraining]

7 minutes ago, Andronikos Medina said:

although I must emphasize that the changes may be few.

What do you mean with "few"? Small changes from the initial concept ..or instead we have to rethink everything?

Anyway in cases like this, the presence of an historical perspective becomes extremely important, so thank you for chiming in!

[Andronikos Medina]

5 minutes ago, Radiotraining said:

What do you mean with "few"? Small changes from the initial concept ..or instead we have to rethink everything?

Anyway in cases like this, the presence of an historical perspective becomes extremely important, so thank you for chiming in!

Small changes to tell the truth, there is not much else I can mention. It is simply that the Russian Muscovites were a direct derivative of the Kievan Rus, the cultural differences would be almost minimal, the Kievan Rus would certainly make more use of wood and certain Byzantine influences while the Russian Muscovites would have already adopted mortar for different structures, not just for monasteries like the Kievan Rus would. Our concept does not have to change as it is much closer to the times of the Kievan Rus.

[Radiotraining]

Ehehe i was kidding because in English it sounded also a bit ambiguous  I was ready to discover perhaps a whole new world in history that I didn't knew ...

but what you said confirms what I also thought and I'm glad we're all pretty much on the same page! 

Also it would be very, very interesting to represent the relations with Byzantium! In the current mod there wasn't much of such interesting symbiosises 

Edited November 3, 2021 by Radiotraining

[Andronikos Medina]

8 minutes ago, Radiotraining said:

Ehehe i was kidding because in English it sounded also a bit ambiguous  I was ready to discover perhaps a whole new world in history that I didn't knie ...

but what you said confirms what I also thought and I'm glad we're all pretty much on the same page! 

Also it would be very, very interesting to represent the relations with Byzantium! In the current mod there wasn't much of such interesting symbiosises 

Over time it did become a new world but in its early phase the Muscovy Rus were a small settlement belonging to the Kievan Rus community of kingdoms from which there would not be great differences, but if we talk about the Rus Muscovites in their midst or late phase, they would have already built entire cities with mortar, marble and other materials, being extremely similar to Slavic architecture and its palaces and white walls. Also the Muscovite Rus of this time would have been much more centralized and would have seen large-scale fighting as they did against the Teutonic order. But this is a new era that goes beyond the limits of the mod, interesting but not likely for the application of the mod, I would say.

And yes, it would be very interesting to see the two cultures connected in some way, in fact it was in the first days of the Christianization of the Rus that the clergy would also be of Greek origin, especially from the Greek cities of the Black Sea that had been recently besieged, but as early as the 10th and 11th century the clergy of the Rus would be directly controlled by the Byzantines. An example of this would be Archbishop Nicephoros, a Greek prelate of Constantinople and advisor to Prince Vladimir II Monomach.

[Dasaavawar]

Kievan Rus wonder: Saint Sophia Cathedral at Kyiv (1011-1036, aprox.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Sophia_Cathedral,_Kyiv

http://www.smarttravel.ee/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Kiev-St-Sophias-Cathedral.jpg

Lemme know if there are some buildings I can model.

Edited November 4, 2021 by Dasaavawar

[nwtour]

On 03/11/2021 at 2:25 AM, Andronikos Medina said:

10th and 11th century the clergy of the Rus would be directly controlled by the Byzantines

The Orthodox Church is decentralized - the term direct control is not correct for the relationship between the patriarchy of Rus and the Constantinople partyarchy. It Acculturation, not direct control.

 

On 03/11/2021 at 12:29 AM, Dasaavawar said:

I still think the Kievan Rus should be the (first) Russian faction to be developed

Kievan Rus is just Rus. It is incorrect to oppose it to Moscow Rus, which is also just Russia only three centuries older.
In 1055, the Monomakh king created a system of government where sons gallop through the cities (Kiev, Novgorod, Ryazan, Chernigov, Vladimir, Polotsk, Smolensk, etc) The result was a confederation that historians in the 20th century called Kievan Rus - but this is not only Kiev (the name is confusing) - these are all these cities-states And in the 13th century, Moscow was appointed as the capital city and not Kiev.

There were no differences in the 9th century. They appeared only as a result of the capture of these cities by other cultures.
I don't see much sense in creating several Rus' (IMHO)


 

[Andronikos Medina]

20 minutes ago, nwtour said:

The Orthodox Church is decentralized - the term direct control is not correct for the relationship between the patriarchy of Rus and the Constantinople partyarchy. It Acculturation, not direct control.

 

Kievan Rus is just Rus. It is incorrect to oppose it to Moscow Rus, which is also just Russia only three centuries older.
In 1055, the Monomakh king created a system of government where sons gallop through the cities (Kiev, Novgorod, Ryazan, Chernigov, Vladimir, Polotsk, Smolensk, etc) The result was a confederation that historians in the 20th century called Kievan Rus - but this is not only Kiev (the name is confusing) - these are all these cities-states And in the 13th century, Moscow was appointed as the capital city and not Kiev.

There were no differences in the 9th century. They appeared only as a result of the capture of these cities by other cultures.
I don't see much sense in creating several Rus' (IMHO)


 

I think you are confusing two great phenomena of the Byzantine Hellenization applied to its neighboring nations.

I say direct control because that is what literally happened, it was with the Byzantine contact that, treaties in which the Byzantine scholars and administrators would have direct or almost direct control of the region in question, until a specific date or year such as what it was with the Rus, a contact that was strengthened much more with the governors of the Monomach dynasty who were original imperial Byzantines. The prelate Nicephoros successfully convinced and integrated the Byzantine political ideas of a single king and a single government that will act as the soul of the ruler among other Platonic citations, to the nations of the Volga through Vladimir II, all of them very deep rooted in the Hellenistic political systems.

This is the direct control that the Byzantines exercised over the Rus without mentioning that all the King's advisers or governors would be of Constantinopolitan Greek origin and that apart from being monks, they would be philosophers and schoolar's.

[Radiotraining]

- - - - - small update : - - - - - -

Hello people! This whole thread started a bit random and a bit for fun, but it's been a great opportunity to experiment with the modding tools of 0ad and bring together some cool talents in the forum on a shared project.  Hopefully this could be also an opportunity to update this mod and bring some new interesting assets and feature to the whole 0ad project! So thanks to everyone that has helped so far and showed interest in the idea!

 

Since there seems to be some participation, to make things easier I thought to open a small little Discord channel to keep the communication tidy and easy for everyone: https://discord.gg/jjGjFhcw  so maybe is possible to discuss some details and ideas without clogging too much the forum with only a particular topic.

So for everyone: feel free to participate!

Also, I think it would be useful to check out for the council of modders: @Lion.Kanzen @Lopess @Stan` @wowgetoffyourcellphone or anyone who makes sure that the quality of 0ad keeps being high. Feel free to chime in!

The forum is still the main venue, but maybe this channel could allow to discuss some minutiae or simply organizational aspects that wouldn't be deserving of a thread here.

Hope I'm making the right thing, in case let me know!

 

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Radiotraining

[nwtour]

6 minutes ago, Andronikos Medina said:

I think you are confusing two great phenomena of the Byzantine Hellenization applied to its neighboring nations.

I say direct control because that is what literally happened, it was with the Byzantine contact that, treaties in which the Byzantine scholars and administrators would have direct or almost direct control of the region in question, until a specific date or year such as what it was with the Rus, a contact that was strengthened much more with the governors of the Monomach dynasty who were original imperial Byzantines. The prelate Nicephoros successfully convinced and integrated the Byzantine political ideas of a single king and a single government that will act as the soul of the ruler among other Platonic citations, to the nations of the Volga through Vladimir II, all of them very deep rooted in the Hellenistic political systems.

This is the direct control that the Byzantines exercised over the Rus without mentioning that all the King's advisers or governors would be of Constantinopolitan Greek origin and that apart from being monks, they would be philosophers and schoolar's.

Your version is romantic, but the dates do not converge. The Hellenization Map of Alexander Macedonsky, of course, does not affect Rus

If you mean "direct control" - this is the establishment of cultural ties with the local elite for safety of trade routes - then it was

And if we mean a modern understanding of direct control and Hellenization - the Byzantium could not control anything for the structured state in Rus appeared at the moment Konstantinople had already degraded

[Andronikos Medina]

17 minutes ago, nwtour said:

Your version is romantic, but the dates do not converge. The Hellenization Map of Alexander Macedonsky, of course, does not affect Rus

If you mean "direct control" - this is the establishment of cultural ties with the local elite for safety of trade routes - then it was

And if we mean a modern understanding of direct control and Hellenization - the Byzantium could not control anything for the structured state in Rus appeared at the moment Konstantinople had already degraded

We are clearly talking about two different Hellenizations (Join us in discord, we need all kinds of knowledge for this initiative!)

 

[Lion.Kanzen]

7 hours ago, nwtour said:

The Orthodox Church is decentralized - the term direct control is not correct for the relationship between the patriarchy of Rus and the Constantinople partyarchy. It Acculturation, not direct control.

 

the hierarchization in being one church is typical of Roman Catholicism, the primitive churches for example were never together, in fact they are presented as such in the Epistolary New testament and in Revelation.

 

centralization began with the popes as in the 7th century with Gregory the Great.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Gregory_I

 

the rest in the East, they kept to the primitive tradition as to some things, only Deacons and Bishops were the leaders.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Christianity

Because the largest church in the East is the body currently known as the Eastern Orthodox Church, the term "Orthodox" is often used in a similar fashion to "Eastern", to refer to specific historical Christian communions. However, strictly speaking, most Christian denominations, whether Eastern or Western, regard themselves as "orthodox" (meaning "following correct beliefs") as well as "catholic" (meaning "universal"), and as sharing in the Four Marks of the Church listed in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed (325 AD): "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic" (Greek: μία, ἁγία, καθολικὴ καὶ ἀποστολικὴ ἐκκλησία)

Edited November 5, 2021 by Lion.Kanzen

[Radiotraining]

On 29/10/2021 at 6:11 PM, Stan` said:

Sounds like something that can be done alread.

• To put it anywhere you have to play with territory restrictions
• Docks are already markets and resource dropsites
• The upgrade feature can allow you to update to a CC. Alternatively you can also create a special tech (since A24) that allows you to give a territory root to your building.

I followed the recipe! Very useful to understand the various functions, thanks so much!

But I stumped into a problem: the building doesn't appear in the gui at all when I click a villager. I guess I'm missing a step somewhere, but I can't understand what's wrong:

My process has been to take the template of a commercial dock, change the name into (in this case) "template_structure_economic_tradingpost", adjust some of the attributes and then place it into the template folder.

I then created a structure called: trading_post.xml in the civilization structure folder with a parent to the previous template.

 

Now, setting aside the specific attributes inside those files, I feel like I'm probably missing something. Maybe the game doesn't recognize different names aside from the classic building structure and they must be specified somewhere? Maybe is there some incoherence in <class> or <category> that could cause the issue? What could be the case, usually?

Yes, there's an "icon.png" attached, so is not like is invisible in the GUI for that reason. I don't know..

Sorry for bothering. Is actually the second time that I'm trying to make a "special" building and I have the same problem, so it would be actually useful to understand what's the root cause. 

(I'll keep looking around tho!)

[Freagarach]

@Radiotraining You'll need to add it to the builder list in "templates/mixins/builder.xml". Just having the structure doesn't mean a villager knows how to construct it. ^^

[Radiotraining]

2 hours ago, Freagarach said:

@Radiotraining You'll need to add it to the builder list in "templates/mixins/builder.xml". Just having the structure doesn't mean a villager knows how to construct it. ^^

AAAAAaaaahh!! There you go!!

I was suspecting something like that..! but I didn't know the location of such instructions! Thanks so much!! ^^ You probably opened me a new world now! ahaha

 

EDIT: nope. I learned something new, but still not working :|  very strange! I'm not doing anything apparently different than any other civ/building and the only actual different thing is the name of the building. So, once I added it also in the <builder> list it should have been recognizable

Edited November 10, 2021 by Radiotraining

[wowgetoffyourcellphone]

On 29/10/2021 at 2:39 PM, Radiotraining said:

I think the problem lies in planning too much stuff ahead that risk to derail a project. That's why I chose to focus on 3 civs for the moment, just to have a clear goal -relatively- manageable.

This is a good approach. In fact, if I were to "redesign" the mod, then I would narrow the focus a lot. Focus it around the Byzantines, like how the base game's center is the Romans. So, your civs would be the Byzantines, Umayyads, Bulgars, and maybe 1 more civ. (I'm just spit balling here, Avars perhaps; I'm not well-versed in the year 1000 AD). I'd have 2 branches of the mod: standard and experimental. The standard version of the mod is the base-game compatible version. The experimental version would do things like add a Religion system, Religious Relics, Jihad, Economics, etc. The experimental version would have the standard version as a dependency. So, you'd put all of your focus on the standard version, and then any experimental stuff you want to try is a smaller side mod.

[Lion.Kanzen]

14 minutes ago, wowgetoffyourcellphone said:

 like add a Religion system, Religious Relics, Jihad, Economics, etc. The experimental version would have the standard version as a dependency. So, you'd put all of your focus on the standard version, and then any experimental stuff you want to try is a smaller side mod.

Even at this time Catholic Romanism has not been consolidated.

It is until the time of the Merovingians.

The cultural underdevelopment after the fall of the Roman Empire is abysmal, It will recover in elite sectors, the monks will save the Greek and Latin tradition from the barbarians.

There will be no knowledge for the people until the Protestant Reformation, schooling will fall (literacy) it will not be available until the people's universities in Protestant countries.

For most of the Middle Ages, knowing how to read will be a matter exclusively for the nobility.

Feudalism brought a culture of ignorance, serfs are relegated to being peasants, the Middle Ages are totalitarian states, in Europe.

Contrast to the ancient age not because of religion, but because of the clergy, science and knowledge become a monopoly.

In Judaism it is clear that studying Torah you need to read despite having rabbis.

[Radiotraining]

Working on this mod, so far I managed to make something similar to what @Lion.Kanzenwas explaining. I introduced a new civ (Rus) and a new building with special functions based on my initial idea/concept at the beginning here:

Quote

The trading of furs, wood and precious metal is the source of the richnesses of the Russian Grandduchy. For this reason, one of the key buildings of this civilization is the Trading Post, a unique building available at a early phase that can be placed in neutral territory and act as universal dropsite and trading hotspot

Stan gave some suggestions in this thread on how to develop the concept from the templates available:

Quote

 

Sounds like something that can be done alread.

• To put it anywhere you have to play with territory restrictions
• Docks are already markets and resource dropsites
• The upgrade feature can allow you to update to a CC. Alternatively you can also create a special tech (since A24) that allows you to give a territory root to your building.

 

• So here you go!

A new 3d model that can be built in neutral territory and, as you can see from the pictures, act as a market (and also as a dropsite!). It's all playable here : https://github.com/stereotipo/millenniumad

If you're interested I can keep you updated on future progress! I didn't exactly know how the Council of Modders operated, but now I think it will be good to share more of new material here in the forum, so it can benefit also of the supervision and feedback of more experienced people!

I just hope I'll not bother too much

 

[Radiotraining]

- Quick update: I moved some of the discussions around concepts and production on a separate Discord channel to not pollute too much this forum with inside debates and too much of technical conversations, but I'll try to offer an updated view of the progress also in the forum. Currently I have to thanks @Andronikos Medina for the historical background and @Dasaavawarfor participating with feedback and ideas!

- Together we came up with an initial review of the current meta of the game (Gameplay_sketch)

And, from that, we distilled a plan of present and future features that would be possible to implement: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gEokmKtmHw_1vQwC2tTUMvgxO_ttm3Z_Xq1GBUeMKT8/edit#gid=2057863749

(it's meant to be a general blueprint, some things may be further reviewed in terms of gameplay balance)

- The main focus would be on the current roast of civs: Byzantine, Umayyads, Carolingians, Anglo-Saxons, Norse + a new faction: Rus. Some things have to be completely updated (Umayyads buildings set, thanks also to @Lopess support!) and some things may be refreshed following a organization of civs into 3 main categories: "Empire civs", "Medium civs" and "Tribal/Nomadic civs", to help manage the balance of each of them.

Something that @Dasaavawarhad already conceptualized in this thread: https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/58002-civ-differentiation-playstyles/?do=findComment&comment=460284

 

- Currently we've decided to focus on refreshing the Byzantines, the most complete and central civ of this mod, thanks to @Andronikos Medina particular interest and expertise around this civilization and historical period. We decided for the introduction of an administrative building (Bouleterion, based on the monastery of Nea Moni) that could:

1. Mark the imperial status of this civilization

2. Offer a blueprint to update current buildings/texture pack somewhere in the future

3. Experiment new techs that could be adapted to the following civs and revive the gameplay that hasn't been updated since a23-24

 

After this first step we would have maybe reached enough maturity and expertise to tackle maybe a new civ like the Rus' and hopefully provide a new, fresh update to Millenium AD.

but we're still at the very beginning of the adventure!

 

 

 

Gameplay_Sketch.txt

Edited November 24, 2021 by Radiotraining

[Lion.Kanzen]

Just now, Radiotraining said:

- Quick update: I moved some of the discussions around concepts and production on a separate Discord channel to not pollute too much this forum with inside debates and too much of technical conversations, but I'll try to offer an updated view of the progress also in the forum. Currently I have to thanks @Andronikos Medina for the historical background and @Dasaavawarfor participating with feedback and ideas!

(The Discord can be found here for anyone who would like to participate: https://discord.gg/QVxs2XDvV6 )

- Together we came up with an initial review of the current meta of the game (Gameplay_sketch)

And, from that, we distilled a plan of present and future features that would be possible to implement: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gEokmKtmHw_1vQwC2tTUMvgxO_ttm3Z_Xq1GBUeMKT8/edit#gid=2057863749

(it's meant to be a general blueprint, some things may be further reviewed in terms of gameplay balance)

- The main focus would be on the current roast of civs: Byzantine, Umayyads, Carolingians, Anglo-Saxons, Norse + a new faction: Rus. Some things have to be completely updated (Umayyads buildings set) and some things may be refreshed following a organization of civs into 3 main categories: "Empire civs", "Medium civs" and "Tribal/Nomadic civs", to help manage the balance of each of them.

Something that @Dasaavawarhad already conceptualized in this thread: https://wildfiregames.com/forum/topic/58002-civ-differentiation-playstyles/?do=findComment&comment=460284

 

- Currently we've decided to focus on refreshing the Byzantines, the most complete and central civ of this mod, thanks to @Andronikos Medina particular interest and expertise around this civilization and historical period, with the introduction of an administrative building (Bouleterion) that could:

1. Mark the imperial status of this civilization

2. Offer a blueprint to update current buildings/texture pack somewhere in the future

3. Experiment new techs that could be adapted to the following civs and revive the gameplay that hasn't been updated since a23-24

 

After this first step we would have maybe reached enough maturity and expertise to tackle maybe a new civ like the Rus' and hopefully provide a new, fresh update to Millenium AD.

Some of the (small) updates and improvements can be found here: https://github.com/stereotipo/millenniumad 

but we're still at the very beginning of the adventure!

 

 

 

Gameplay_Sketch.txt 4 kB · 0 downloads

https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/Design_Document#PlayableCivilizations

 

will be useful for you.