proposals for formations

[Stan`]

4 minutes ago, Ceres said:

Yes, but I just wondered if there were civs especially good at this and whether this could be regarded as a civ-specific "formation". Oh, BTW, could there be civ-specific formations at all in 0 A.D.? The Roman turtle is something like this, too.

Uh, the roman testudo is a a civ specific formation, so are the phalanx and syntagma.

[Ceres]

Thank you!

Another question: When transforming from e.g. closed to open formation, the units are looking into a different direction (seems arbitrary, or following where the path is easy). Is this something that could be changed, so they face into the same direction when changing formation? (if room permits)

[Stan`]

That's a question for @Angen and @Freagarach

[Freagarach]

https://code.wildfiregames.com/D4272

[Ceres]

Very nice - thank you! I played with various changes with these guys in the order shown below. It even works nicely between obstacles! (not shown below) Sorry for the a bit sluggish gxf. It's because I use a headless VM for dev stuff and xrdp to it.

No formation:

Box - here they turned around:

Forced March:

Close Order - here they turned to the right:

Column Open:

Open Order:

Flank:

Battle Line:

Testudo meanwhile also tested and works as expected, too (not shown, though).

 

Edited September 14, 2021 by Ceres

[MoLAoS]

9 hours ago, Ceres said:

Fun would be it if units including citizen could pour hot water or (burning) oil from walls and wall turrets, too. But that is not about "formations", sorry.

Are there civs known to have their soldiers burying themselves in the ground, waiting for the enemy to pass by and then come out? If you considered this a "special" form of formation, it could be fun, too.

Hyrule Conquest has burning alcohol barrels for tower use. Dunno how the animations worked cause I never got attacked while I had it researched.

[Ceres]

Sorry, Hyrule Conquest does not tell me anything. You mean it's possible in 0 A.D. (as a mod)?

[Stan`]

1 hour ago, Ceres said:

Sorry, Hyrule Conquest does not tell me anything. You mean it's possible in 0 A.D. (as a mod)?

Yeah https://www.moddb.com/mods/hyrule-conquest is a mod with a lot of fancy features:

- Knockback

- Stun

- Amphibious units

- Civ Specific UI

- Batalions

- Stealth

And a few other features. Sadly we still haven't been able to port it to A24, and it's still not working for A25.

 

[Ceres]

Oh, amazin video! Thanks for the link and the summary. It puts indeed lots of fancy fantasy stuff into 0 A.D. Is stealth something eligible for the normal game? I don't mean units popping up from the air but rather camouflaged from the ground (as some kind of special formation).

[maroder]

48 minutes ago, Ceres said:

but rather camouflaged from the ground

I always liked the idea of units "garrisoning" in a forest, to ambush the enemy.

Edited September 15, 2021 by maroder

[Ceres]

And this should be "easier" as the forest is a defined entity (some piece of ground rather not), right? Maybe even some denser and larger bushes would work. Does it need coding and building from code to get this done, or would it be achievable by adding/editing .js and .xml files?

[maroder]

3 minutes ago, Ceres said:

Does it need coding and building from code to get this done, or would it be achievable by adding/editing .js and .xml files?

I guess it would require some coding, but only js.

my idea was to use the tree groves from DE / @wowgetoffyourcellphone (a combination of trees as a functional unit), as that seems more realistic for this idea.

Then you have to make them garrisonable for everybody or just for specific factions, which is the part that will likely require some new code (without having looked into it). You also don't want this to show up on the minimap, which would defeat the point of hiding, but that should be doable if the player doesn't actually "own" the trees.

Optionally you want to have health variants of the tree groves, which restrict the garrisoning (i.e when the forest is being cut down, your people should be forced to leave)

 

[real_tabasco_sauce]

6 hours ago, maroder said:

I always liked the idea of units "garrisoning" in a forest, to ambush the enemy.

perhaps it would be more logical to limit vision range in forest regions as seen in AOE4?

2:38 is where it shows the vision range behavior near forest.

In this direction, wouldnt it be cool if a civ, hero, or unit had a vision range in forest perk? Imagine if naked fanatics could see farther in forests.

an ambush could be set up by running into the forest, building an outpost for better vision, and waiting for the right moment to attack!

[maroder]

1 hour ago, real_tabasco_sauce said:

perhaps it would be more logical to limit vision range in forest regions as seen in AOE4

That would be nice and more logical, but also way more complicated I guess.

[Ceres]

@Stan` Can vision be limited for certain units and/or on certain grounds/vegetation, e.g. woods?

[Stan`]

It's possible in theory to reduce vision range using an aura

Here are a list of things than can be affected by techs aura. It's missing the Damage tags in some places and needs to be updated.

https://trac.wildfiregames.com/wiki/TechModifications

[Ceres]

So it would be 'Vision/Range' to deal with, right? EDIT: Something like this? (outpostvision.json)

{
	"genericName": "Carrier Pigeons",
	"description": "Increases outpost vision.",
	"cost": { "food": 300 },
	"requirements": { "tech": "phase_village" },
	"icon": "pigeon.png",
	"researchTime": 40,
	"tooltip": "Outposts +33% vision range.",
	"modifications": [
		{ "value": "Vision/Range", "multiply": 1.333333 }
	],
	"affects": ["Outpost"],
	"soundComplete": "interface/alarm/alarm_upgradearmory.xml"
}

 

BTW, can wiki content by dynamically updated with updates code/js/xml? Then one would not have to bother anymore about the wiki not being up to date in some areas.

Edited September 16, 2021 by Ceres

[Stan`]

11 minutes ago, Ceres said:

BTW, can wiki content by dynamically updated with updates code/js/xml? Then one would not have to bother anymore about the wiki not being up to date in some areas.

Not really. The only part that can be is the stuff on docs.wildfiregames.com

[Ceres]

For my understanding about auras etc.:

Units A + B both have the same vision range.

Now unit A goes into a forest. This must be flagged somehow.

When unit B approaches the forest, where/who gets an aura? Unit A, unit B, or the forest?

Will a vision/range of unit B be set to zero, so it cannot see unit A, until it gets really close? But would then unit B not also see nothing else in its surroundings, i.e. not even buildings in that forest? How could they be distinguished?

Or will an aura of the hidden unit A be relevant?

[Stan`]

You use classes to define how B and A differ. The Tree C has an aura

[alre]

one could have an aura applied to units in the forest, that:

- lower their vision range

- make them invisible to enemy units

- make them capable of seeing other invisible units.

Provided that forest grooves are implemented, all these changes seem not too hard. Hardest thing seems to me to make the aura of the groove responsive to deforestation. I'm not sure about how to do point 2 e 3 either, but the undying nephalim did those already.

[Ceres]

How and where are the strctures referred to elsewhere in the code? I see some there in connection with auras and wonder if to put forests/trees there is the right way to go:

D:\repos\0ad\binaries\data\mods\public\simulation\data\auras\structures

Sorry that I'm likely writing nonsense, which is due to my lack of knowledge where to find what. I guess I would need to draw a Le Métro map for this.

[alre]

structures are buildings. is that what you referring to? forest groves are in delenda est only, I don't know how much are they compatible with this kind of aura design.

[maroder]

31 minutes ago, alre said:

Hardest thing seems to me to make the aura of the groove responsive to deforestation.

That should not be hard, I guess you can use health variants. I.e only the grove with full health has the aura and if it gets damage it switches to another actor that doesn't have the aura.

And yes the forest groves should also be compatible to auras as they are just normal entities.

[real_tabasco_sauce]

 

1 hour ago, alre said:

one could have an aura applied to units in the forest, that:

- lower their vision range

- make them invisible to enemy units

- make them capable of seeing other invisible units.

Provided that forest grooves are implemented, all these changes seem not too hard. Hardest thing seems to me to make the aura of the groove responsive to deforestation. I'm not sure about how to do point 2 e 3 either, but the undying nephalim did those already.

Would it be bad to simply give each gaia tree(provided its part of a generated forest) this aura (3 meters or so), so when they are cut down the overall aura the forest has is reduced?

I think if this is implemented, groves would not be necessary.